Why always Pagids when chosing pads?
#61
Originally Posted by LVDell
Chris, explain what you mean by the braking David taught you? In the past I went hard on the brakes (threshold) and then came off them progressively so that I was basically 100% off the brakes just after turn in and then start applying throttle to power through the apex. I have since changed my braking strategy to almost that it looks like a "normal curve" (think stats class) whereby I start to brake a little sooner and then quickly move to threashold then back off. This has helped me be much more smooth and take away the tail waggle I feel pushing 160 on the back straight at VIR when I hit the braking zone at full threashold braking like I did in the past.
Did that make sense?
Did that make sense?
It sounds to me like what you are describing essentially is devoid of trailbraking. When I first started doing this that is how I was taught to brake. Threshold that is. All braking done in a straight line, harsh initial application holding this for a long time. I actually did this for the better part of my first 1.5 years. I began to hear the term trailbraking but really had no instructor show me the proper way to do it much less describe what was happening when I did such. I read about it and all, but...
David tried to show me that driving a car is all about physics (movement, inertia, weight management, etc.). He spoke of 5% brake inputs to "settle" the nose, 5-10% horsepower inputs to put weight on the rear tires. I don't know how to calculate 5-10% tips at the restaurant much less being able to feel what 5% horsepower changes feel like. HaHaHa!
With braking he states that he has braking points but really he does not have them...huh? Well what he went on to say was that he "felt" how fast he was going coming into a particular corner and because he knew exactly where he wanted to initiate turn in, would brake on a scale of 1-10 down such that he would always be at a 3 when he reached that point. Thus he may start at a 5 for X mph or an 8 for Y mph, again based on feel. He would then trail the brake from 3-2-1 as he initiated turn in and be off the brake completely only just before the apex where he would begin throttle application.
Thats all. To me it was nothing more than a good explanation of trailbraking and one that I could understand easily.
Hope that helps.
#62
Everything, and I do mean everything concerning driving a car is about balance. You drive to keep all 4 tires as firmly planted as you can when you want maximum grip, and at times purposely unbalance the car to get it pointed in the direction that you need. Dell, getting on the brakes smoother allows the tires keep their grip. That's why it feels better. I did a classroom on balance at Summit Point last year. It was an eye opener for many.
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#63
Chris, better explanation. Totally understand now.
Larry, you ain't kidding. I am slowly but surely learning how much time you give up thinking you are going fast but then unbalance at the wrong place and BAM! there you go fighting to get back ON balance. That is the part of driving I am trying to "master". Driving with great balance=smooth and that is what I assume we are all after?
ps. I need to just get back on the track
Larry, you ain't kidding. I am slowly but surely learning how much time you give up thinking you are going fast but then unbalance at the wrong place and BAM! there you go fighting to get back ON balance. That is the part of driving I am trying to "master". Driving with great balance=smooth and that is what I assume we are all after?
ps. I need to just get back on the track
#64
Originally Posted by Larry Herman
Everything, and I do mean everything concerning driving a car is about balance. You drive to keep all 4 tires as firmly planted as you can when you want maximum grip, and at times purposely unbalance the car to get it pointed in the direction that you need. Dell, getting on the brakes smoother allows the tires keep their grip. That's why it feels better. I did a classroom on balance at Summit Point last year. It was an eye opener for many.
Nice way of stating it Larry. David taught me how to balance the car better. Not be so harsh but be in control of the movement of the car at all times. I would like to think I am better at this than I was before...but I have so much to learn as evidenced by my questions on this thread.
#65
Originally Posted by Larry Herman
Everything, and I do mean everything concerning driving a car is about balance. You drive to keep all 4 tires as firmly planted as you can when you want maximum grip, and at times purposely unbalance the car to get it pointed in the direction that you need.
Karting is good for this IMHO because driving over the limit usually doesn't have the consequences of doing so in a car. You can practice dancing on the pin all day long. On a sharp day (or just for a few sharp laps or even corners) when you get it right - that's what keeps you coming back for more. The line between in-control and out that seemed so fine becomes a big gray area for you to play in.
It's probably fair to point out that I'm a big p*ssy and my GT3 will likely never see the track. Honestly, the idea of trying to learn the limits of the car on a real track (Summit turn 4, anyone? or most of the corners at the Glen) is kind of scary. I'm impressed that you guys do it.
#66
Originally Posted by mfennell
my GT3 will likely never see the track. Honestly, the idea of trying to learn the limits of the car on a real track (Summit turn 4, anyone? or most of the corners at the Glen) is kind of scary.
#67
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From: NC - One headlight capital of the world
Originally Posted by Larry Herman
Everything, and I do mean everything concerning driving a car is about balance. You drive to keep all 4 tires as firmly planted as you can when you want maximum grip, and at times purposely unbalance the car to get it pointed in the direction that you need.
mfennell, I've enjoyed the discussion.
As for Chris Caveman's latest posts... me too tired to think.
Me look forward to VIR with Zone 2.
Bench racing and brewskies with Rennlist buds!
#68
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From: NC - One headlight capital of the world
Originally Posted by Larry Herman
That is a shame, because you will never really know the beauty of that car. Stock GT3s run really strong, especially at a bumpy track like Summit Point. How does 156 coming into turn 1 sound? Or the long pull up the back straight at the Glen. Maybe after you get a bunch of miles on it, you'll change your mind.
Learning the GT3 has been very rewarding and very humbling. The slope of my learning curve in it has been rather conservative due to the somewhat non-disposable nature of the auto.
I must say that the car is quite outstanding bone stock. As you push harder and harder, some of the 'shortcomings' of the street car start to show... but it's a real joy to drive!
#70
Chris L.
Your post before really made me laugh! The whole time I have been reading this thread I am thinking "I must be just plain dumb". I usually cannot put into words anything like the way some of these guys like Larry and Dell are saying. The problem with me is that I just want to drive! I just do what feels right to me. I don't really want to think about it. That is probably why I will be slower than you guys in the end! But I am having fun!!!
Your post before really made me laugh! The whole time I have been reading this thread I am thinking "I must be just plain dumb". I usually cannot put into words anything like the way some of these guys like Larry and Dell are saying. The problem with me is that I just want to drive! I just do what feels right to me. I don't really want to think about it. That is probably why I will be slower than you guys in the end! But I am having fun!!!
#71
Originally Posted by Larry Herman
That is a shame, because you will never really know the beauty of that car. Stock GT3s run really strong, especially at a bumpy track like Summit Point. How does 156 coming into turn 1 sound?
What kind of lap times do well driven stock GT3s run at Summit?
#73
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From: san francisco
Originally Posted by RJFabCab
+1
I must say that the car is quite outstanding bone stock. As you push harder and harder, some of the 'shortcomings' of the street car start to show... but it's a real joy to drive!
I must say that the car is quite outstanding bone stock. As you push harder and harder, some of the 'shortcomings' of the street car start to show... but it's a real joy to drive!
then you put coil over, heim joints, delete muffler, rip out int.... then you can drive it to the grocery store anymore ;-)
#74
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From: san francisco
Originally Posted by Crazy Canuck
Go Kotex. You'll be faster. They have wings.
cheaper and lighter you know.
you like the extra long for hvy flow days hahaha.
#75
Just to clarify, racing brake fluid is a must with our race compounds (97, 01, 03, 05, etc). While we would prefer an ester based fluid (Castrol SRF) there are other glycol based fluids that work as well, but they are far more hygroscopic. Wet boiling point is key. ATE Blue which a lot of people in PCA run (I used to run it as well) is not the best choice with our pads.
The torque of our pads is higher than the Pagid pads without a torque loss with temperature. When you slow a vehicle in a shorter distance it will create more heat, and since the pads don't fade you can boil your fluid if you do not have fresh hi temperature fluid. Because of this Pagid and Hawk aren't competitor of ours in the higher levels of professional racing.
-Phil Gilsdorf
Director of Marketing
Performance Friction Corp.
The torque of our pads is higher than the Pagid pads without a torque loss with temperature. When you slow a vehicle in a shorter distance it will create more heat, and since the pads don't fade you can boil your fluid if you do not have fresh hi temperature fluid. Because of this Pagid and Hawk aren't competitor of ours in the higher levels of professional racing.
-Phil Gilsdorf
Director of Marketing
Performance Friction Corp.