m3 spy shots show a big hole on top!? optional!
09-01-2006, 07:50 AM
#31
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Pole Position-- thanks , you made me laugh! These forums are great for getting caught up (like cliff notes). I've been reading this forum for 2 weeks trying to catch up on GT3 data. Never owned a P car. Currently have a CHevy C5 track car with all the handling , braking , Hp goodies that has been incredibly reliable. After 5 yrs of spanking it hard I am looking for a change. 6 mos ago when I saw the new GT3 , I was hooked. Plan to order one today. We are building a 2.8mi road course 20min from my home . www.alpinesignature.com... I can't think of a nicer commuter car that can take a few laps on the way home from work... I'll be posting more as I learn more.....Great forum....
09-01-2006, 12:10 PM
#32
CME - you are the man. I am desperately in love with your E30 M3. I miss my E36 M3, and I would certainly sell my E46 M3 for yours! Who knows... let me know if it's for sale : )
Cheers,
PFitz
Cheers,
PFitz
09-01-2006, 04:08 PM
#33
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Bora,
Clearly the S54 and GT3 powerplants are different in design - but similar in their pursuit of:
- schizophrenic throttle response.
- high-revs, "acceleration due to larger area under the curve".
- natural aspiration with over 100HP/liter.
With the death of the S54 in everything but the rehashed Z4M...
There is only one "technologically current" 6 left on the market that I can jump to, its called the 997 GT3. Hence my personal evolution has only one destination. Every preview of the 997GT3 by the press has been nothing short of stellar. While the Turbo confounds the reviewer initially and concludes with a feeling of reverence, the GT3 delights and energizes.
The match-ups between the F430, GT3 and Gallardo are going to be the battle royale. And if the GT3 comes up trumps - it will be the certified bargain of the current sports car line-up. Z06 fans will raise their eyebrows - and they are welcome to.
The M3, similarly was a $50K marvel of engineering back in late 2000. They lost the plot this time. The only way it can be saved is BMW breaking tradition and allowing M to let it be faster than the M5. But that would hurt the M6.
The first time I finished driving my M3, armed it and walked away I couldn't help but think that the Project Lead on the E92 M3 had a gut wrenching job ahead. How do you top this for the money and keep its character?
gmoney had the inference right.
Cheers,
Z.
Clearly the S54 and GT3 powerplants are different in design - but similar in their pursuit of:
- schizophrenic throttle response.
- high-revs, "acceleration due to larger area under the curve".
- natural aspiration with over 100HP/liter.
With the death of the S54 in everything but the rehashed Z4M...
There is only one "technologically current" 6 left on the market that I can jump to, its called the 997 GT3. Hence my personal evolution has only one destination. Every preview of the 997GT3 by the press has been nothing short of stellar. While the Turbo confounds the reviewer initially and concludes with a feeling of reverence, the GT3 delights and energizes.
The match-ups between the F430, GT3 and Gallardo are going to be the battle royale. And if the GT3 comes up trumps - it will be the certified bargain of the current sports car line-up. Z06 fans will raise their eyebrows - and they are welcome to.
The M3, similarly was a $50K marvel of engineering back in late 2000. They lost the plot this time. The only way it can be saved is BMW breaking tradition and allowing M to let it be faster than the M5. But that would hurt the M6.
The first time I finished driving my M3, armed it and walked away I couldn't help but think that the Project Lead on the E92 M3 had a gut wrenching job ahead. How do you top this for the money and keep its character?
gmoney had the inference right.
Cheers,
Z.
09-01-2006, 04:26 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by earlyapex
The market for light weight, bare bones sports cars is obviously small and by itself costs a company a tidy sum. That however misses a very important point. A car company does not have to produce a model to simply sell enough to make money. Companies regularly put out models that they feel portray an image that gets more customers into their show rooms knowing well that most of these customers will buy a lesser model. This was the point of the Pontiac GTO and Fort GT. A M3 LW would go get great press and help reverse some of the negative views of the brand.
EXACTLY. How many Enzo or 360CS owners track their cars? How many buyers are complaining abotu the lack of luxury on those models? How is Lotus selling featureless cars for $50k? Hell the C6Z06 is selling fine despite having a rubbish interior for a $70k car. Ferrari owners are no doubt in it for the image. And the same thing for most Porsche owners. You guys can say this forum is full of hardcore enthusiasts, but everytime I see a thread about a track newb running R-comps at his first event, or some guy buying a Cupcar, trailer, and personal pitcrew to do his DE's (after he's graduated from the class of "I drive at 4/10's" his first time around), I think otherwise.
The fact is that race car drivers are big, tough manly men that other nerdy engineers, computer geeks, and hedge fund managers want to be associated with. People don't buy Porsche for pure speed. The noble and the new C6Z06, regardless of all the talk about steering feel or confidence or whatever, are faster around the n-ring and faster around most racetracks. People buy Porsche's because they exhibit that racecar imagine. They have been hardcore sports cars and a racing brand for decades. Now that that image is solidly "branded" into everyone's mind, Porsche can bank on it without having to commit to it. That means they can pull out of factory racing without losing any of the race car imagine. They can sell 997GT3's to lost of want to be racers who will drive a GT3 their first time on the track, and drive it at 4/10ths the entire time. That same person will come on here and talk about trail braking and heel toeing and "the line" and "what slicks should I buy" and all the time he will be lapped by E30 M3's driving at the limit.
I was on F-chat the other day and a guy actually asked what slicks he should get on his CS. He had no track experience whatsoever. See what I mean?
My point is that people want that racer image, and they will pay for it. But if they can have it without a rough ride and a lack of features (all gain, no pain), THEY WILL PAY EVEN MORE. Porsche knows this.
But as this continues, these companies will screw themselves out of that imagine. Think of what Porsche meant to the average person 30 years ago. What does it mean now? "*******," "fat lawyer," "rich snob," etc. If Porsche continues to build soft cars, they will become a soft brand. If Porsche does not do serious factory racing and build some hardcore street cars for the next 20 years, that race car image and race car pedigree will be gone and no longer profitable. Look at BMW. What did the E30 M3 mean to you? Who bought them? What does the E46 M3 mean? Who buys them? This is why I think the GT3 RS needs to be sunroof-less.
Last edited by AeroGT3RedWing; 09-01-2006 at 05:23 PM.
09-01-2006, 05:21 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by AeroGT3RedWing
EXACTLY. How many Enzo or 360CS owners track their cars? How many buyers are complaining abotu the lack of luxury on those models? How is Lotus selling featureless cars for $50k? Hell the C6Z06 is selling fine despite having a rubbish interior for a $70k car. Ferrari owners are no doubt in it for the image. And the same thing for most Porsche owners. You guys can say this forum is full of hardcore enthusiasts, but everytime I see a thread about a track newb running R-comps at his first event, or some guy buying a Cupcar, trailer, and personal pitcrew to do his DE's (after he's graduated from the class of "I drive at 4/10's" his first time around), I think otherwise.
The fact is that race car drivers are big, tough manly men that other nerdy engineers, computer geeks, and hedge fund managers want to be associated with. People don't buy Porsche for pure speed. The noble and the new C6Z06, regardless of all the talk about steering feel or confidence or whatever, are faster around the n-ring and faster around most racetracks. People buy Porsche's because they exhibit that racecar imagine. They have been hardcore sports cars and a racing brand for decades. Now that that image is solidly "branded" into everyone's mind, Porsche can bank on it without having to commit to it. That means they can pull out of factory racing without losing any of the race car imagine. They can sell 997GT3's to lost of want to be racers who will drive a GT3 their first time on the track, and drive it at 4/10ths the entire time. That same person will come on here and talk about trail braking and heel toeing and "the line" and "what slicks should I buy" and all the time he will be lapped by E30 M3's driving at the limit.
I was on F-chat the other day and a guy actually asked what slicks he should get on his CS. He had no track experience whatsoever. See what I mean?
My point is that people want that racer image, and they will pay for it. But if they can have it without a rough ride and a lack of features (all gain, no pain), THEY WILL PAY EVEN MORE. Porsche knows this.
But as this continues, these companies will screw themselves out of that imagine. Think of what Porsche meant to the average person 30 years ago. What does it mean now? "*******," "fat lawyer," "rich snob," etc. If Porsche continues to build soft cars, they will become a soft brand. If Porsche does not do serious factory racing and build some hardcore street cars for the next 20 years, that race car image and race car pedigree will be gone and no longer profitable. Look at BMW. What did the E30 M3 mean to you? Who bought them? What does the E46 M3 mean? Who buys them? This is why I think the GT3 RS needs to be sunroof-less.
The fact is that race car drivers are big, tough manly men that other nerdy engineers, computer geeks, and hedge fund managers want to be associated with. People don't buy Porsche for pure speed. The noble and the new C6Z06, regardless of all the talk about steering feel or confidence or whatever, are faster around the n-ring and faster around most racetracks. People buy Porsche's because they exhibit that racecar imagine. They have been hardcore sports cars and a racing brand for decades. Now that that image is solidly "branded" into everyone's mind, Porsche can bank on it without having to commit to it. That means they can pull out of factory racing without losing any of the race car imagine. They can sell 997GT3's to lost of want to be racers who will drive a GT3 their first time on the track, and drive it at 4/10ths the entire time. That same person will come on here and talk about trail braking and heel toeing and "the line" and "what slicks should I buy" and all the time he will be lapped by E30 M3's driving at the limit.
I was on F-chat the other day and a guy actually asked what slicks he should get on his CS. He had no track experience whatsoever. See what I mean?
My point is that people want that racer image, and they will pay for it. But if they can have it without a rough ride and a lack of features (all gain, no pain), THEY WILL PAY EVEN MORE. Porsche knows this.
But as this continues, these companies will screw themselves out of that imagine. Think of what Porsche meant to the average person 30 years ago. What does it mean now? "*******," "fat lawyer," "rich snob," etc. If Porsche continues to build soft cars, they will become a soft brand. If Porsche does not do serious factory racing and build some hardcore street cars for the next 20 years, that race car image and race car pedigree will be gone and no longer profitable. Look at BMW. What did the E30 M3 mean to you? Who bought them? What does the E46 M3 mean? Who buys them? This is why I think the GT3 RS needs to be sunroof-less.
1/2 the people at driving events whether it is an autocross, DE, lapping days or karting are engineers. I'm not one of them, but they love to tinker with this stuff and find out what will work and what won't. Are they good driver's? Some are and some aren't, but that is true of the general population.
There are a lot of posers out there, but I fail to see the harm in asking if a particular r-compound is better than the next. I can't see a blvd. cruiser asking that question. And how about the guy that is just getting into motorsports?
Isn't this what this forum is about... the sharing of information and ideas. If I can ask Mooty a general question on what pressures he runs on the RA-1's vs. the MPSC, than I'm a wannabe? I've run both on my M3, but never on the GT3, so I ask because these guys have more experience with the GT3 than I do or anyone else does. In the end, one saves time and money by learning from other's experiences.
I'm sorry, if you can't ask questions on this forum, then where?
09-01-2006, 05:32 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by M3Pete
WOW.... talk about gross generalizations. Race car driver's are big tough manly men... Mario Andretti never turned a wrench in his life and freely admits it. He knows he's not the kind of person to get under a car even before he became famous and was starting out.
1/2 the people at driving events whether it is an autocross, DE, lapping days or karting are engineers. I'm not one of them, but they love to tinker with this stuff and find out what will work and what won't. Are they good driver's? Some are and some aren't, but that is true of the general population.
There are a lot of posers out there, but I fail to see the harm in asking if a particular r-compound is better than the next. I can't see a blvd. cruiser asking that question. And how about the guy that is just getting into motorsports?
Isn't this what this forum is about... the sharing of information and ideas. If I can ask Mooty a general question on what pressures he runs on the RA-1's vs. the MPSC, than I'm a wannabe? I've run both on my M3, but never on the GT3, so I ask because these guys have more experience with the GT3 than I do or anyone else does. In the end, one saves time and money by learning from other's experiences.
I'm sorry, if you can't ask questions on this forum, then where?
1/2 the people at driving events whether it is an autocross, DE, lapping days or karting are engineers. I'm not one of them, but they love to tinker with this stuff and find out what will work and what won't. Are they good driver's? Some are and some aren't, but that is true of the general population.
There are a lot of posers out there, but I fail to see the harm in asking if a particular r-compound is better than the next. I can't see a blvd. cruiser asking that question. And how about the guy that is just getting into motorsports?
Isn't this what this forum is about... the sharing of information and ideas. If I can ask Mooty a general question on what pressures he runs on the RA-1's vs. the MPSC, than I'm a wannabe? I've run both on my M3, but never on the GT3, so I ask because these guys have more experience with the GT3 than I do or anyone else does. In the end, one saves time and money by learning from other's experiences.
I'm sorry, if you can't ask questions on this forum, then where?
I myself am an engineer. My point is not "all engineers have ego issues because they are geeks." My point is that successful people are not always buying these cars for the performance. Image is a BIG deal. If Kia came out with a 70k GT3 destroyer that didn't look too hot, who would buy it? I would, but most would not. Why? No brand image, heritage, marketing, etc.
There are a lot of posers, and there isn't anything wrong with asking which tire is best. But anyone who runs r-comps on their very first track day in ANY car is way overdoing it.
Sure, ask away about alignement, setup up, tires, pressures, whatever. If you are faster than your street tires, go buy some r comps. If you're driving 9/10ths and really need every bit of performance you can get, ask away. But if you want to get magnesium wheels bolts and magnesium wheels and every mod possible just to drive 4/10ths on the track, or spend thousands on mods and $150 on single track day per year, you're probably a poser more than an enthusiast.
People want that racer image, and they will pay for it. But if they can have it without a rough ride and a lack of features (all gain, no pain), THEY WILL PAY EVEN MORE. Porsche knows this. That is why they will do a sunroof in the new GT3. 95% of 996ers order the roof. No brainer, IMO.
09-01-2006, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by AeroGT3RedWing
If Porsche does not do serious factory racing and build some hardcore street cars for the next 20 years, that race car image and race car pedigree will be gone and no longer profitable.
i do agree with "blaming" the majority of the consumers and not the companies
cause they will target who will bring them more money
09-01-2006, 06:04 PM
#38
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Yes it appears on the surface that the new GT3 appears more soft, but until it's driven, it's hard to tell. Every new generation that comes out is more advanced in most areas.
The fact that companies have to go with generalizations is true to some extent to please the bean counters.
I think we can all tell who shows up at the track as posers or persons that want a racer image. It's the same person who puts the same car in a clean car contest. Without trying to over generalize, I don't think a track car or even a car that has ever seen a track can be in a clean car contest. Two different worlds in my opinion. But I don't begrudge the tuner crowd or Fast & Furious crowd or contours crowd that does it as it's their money, they can do whatever they want with it. It does amaze me how much is spent on looks vs. performance, but then I'm a cheap bastard and don't like to spend the money if it doesn't do anything for you.
When I raced, there were people who spent ridiculous amounts of money to gain that .1 of a second. It never failed, the person who won the race would generally be happy with their set up and had a pretty leisurely time until the next race. Whereas everyone else was looking to engine builders, tires, alignments etc. to get to where the winner was. After the next race, whoever came in 2nd and below was chasing again. Never ending cycle.
The guy who drives 4/10's as you say and buys the latest and greatest will eventually be bored and sell out and leave it up to us cheap bastards to buy at a discount. So you see, I don't begrudge.
The fact that companies have to go with generalizations is true to some extent to please the bean counters.
I think we can all tell who shows up at the track as posers or persons that want a racer image. It's the same person who puts the same car in a clean car contest. Without trying to over generalize, I don't think a track car or even a car that has ever seen a track can be in a clean car contest. Two different worlds in my opinion. But I don't begrudge the tuner crowd or Fast & Furious crowd or contours crowd that does it as it's their money, they can do whatever they want with it. It does amaze me how much is spent on looks vs. performance, but then I'm a cheap bastard and don't like to spend the money if it doesn't do anything for you.
When I raced, there were people who spent ridiculous amounts of money to gain that .1 of a second. It never failed, the person who won the race would generally be happy with their set up and had a pretty leisurely time until the next race. Whereas everyone else was looking to engine builders, tires, alignments etc. to get to where the winner was. After the next race, whoever came in 2nd and below was chasing again. Never ending cycle.
The guy who drives 4/10's as you say and buys the latest and greatest will eventually be bored and sell out and leave it up to us cheap bastards to buy at a discount. So you see, I don't begrudge.
09-01-2006, 07:39 PM
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if you think about it what are we really complaining about? ( me included)
911's have not put on more than 100 lbs or so within the last 15 years unlike BMWs
despite all the added technology: drive-by-wire, steer-by-wire, PASM etc which everyone are adding
a more raw feel to the car, for a street car, can be easily achieved with more agressive alignments, the ones the new cars come with are a joke, and slight suspension adjustments
besides porsche seem to stay more raw than other makers, to today's standards, compare it with BMW or even 360CS which only comes as F1 and has even more electronic gizmos than the 997 GT3..the 430 cs will be even more in that direction it seems
as far as the sunroof i wouldn't want it but i think it's not a question of porsche's direction since that's not how all GT3s are around the world...its something specific to US requlations and PNA decisions
911's have not put on more than 100 lbs or so within the last 15 years unlike BMWs
despite all the added technology: drive-by-wire, steer-by-wire, PASM etc which everyone are adding
a more raw feel to the car, for a street car, can be easily achieved with more agressive alignments, the ones the new cars come with are a joke, and slight suspension adjustments
besides porsche seem to stay more raw than other makers, to today's standards, compare it with BMW or even 360CS which only comes as F1 and has even more electronic gizmos than the 997 GT3..the 430 cs will be even more in that direction it seems
as far as the sunroof i wouldn't want it but i think it's not a question of porsche's direction since that's not how all GT3s are around the world...its something specific to US requlations and PNA decisions
09-01-2006, 08:49 PM
#40
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Originally Posted by rodneyr
The new M3 looks too much like the current 3 coupe, and is not as aggressive as the current M3. I liked my E46 M3 much better than the new one looks.
09-01-2006, 09:14 PM
#41
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If this debate is about sunroofs, blame luxury. Blame the driver who will be a fat cat lawyer and fund manager who kick asses with the sunroof open because he doesnt care if shunts driving it at 10/10ths. Unfortunately, most do not have the time, patience and and direction to learn how to drivermine nevermind drive a pretty great car at 10/10 while remaining a fat cat - I think every comparison is truly orthagonal to your whole argument. And yes rest assured, out a production of 900 street cars, most will driven only on the street to and from work or to dinner or to friends. You should get one of those off lease.
Track, is a not just a hobby, it is a personal persuit, it gets into your bones. It hurts you in the winter. I really can not see the connect with fat cats and no track poser use.
Frankly, I do not see any particular pattern.
...as well, porsches or any sports car are all expensive to track. The good thing about a GT3 (and now the Z06) is that it has proper and sufficient dry sump lubrication.
Frankly, the sunroof, is just simply a lack of choice. If you buy new, do not buy it and buy another car. What might happen is what happened with the new M5 - BMW will now produce manuals for usa because the market demaned it and the marheters were wrong.
Ranting is worthless unless you are affecting the market.
Track, is a not just a hobby, it is a personal persuit, it gets into your bones. It hurts you in the winter. I really can not see the connect with fat cats and no track poser use.
Frankly, I do not see any particular pattern.
...as well, porsches or any sports car are all expensive to track. The good thing about a GT3 (and now the Z06) is that it has proper and sufficient dry sump lubrication.
Frankly, the sunroof, is just simply a lack of choice. If you buy new, do not buy it and buy another car. What might happen is what happened with the new M5 - BMW will now produce manuals for usa because the market demaned it and the marheters were wrong.
Ranting is worthless unless you are affecting the market.
09-02-2006, 04:19 AM
#42
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Well...
Originally Posted by NC03M3
CME - you are the man. I am desperately in love with your E30 M3. I miss my E36 M3, and I would certainly sell my E46 M3 for yours! Who knows... let me know if it's for sale : )
Cheers,
PFitz
Cheers,
PFitz
09-02-2006, 12:40 PM
#43
Banned
Originally Posted by pole position
No, BMW could not easily sell stripped down M3's. The E30 M3 had boat anchors attached to them when they were available, dealer incentives ? Yes. E36 M3 LWT, yeah, you guessed, could not give them away, trunkmoney again. RS America ? Don't even get me started on that discount priceleader and , surprise, DEALER INCENTIVES to get rid of them.
Now,where were you all you do gooders,experts and net forum F1 racing drivers in the early 90's when Porsche almost sold out to Daimler because they were close to folding ? So how come you guys did not do your part (read buying) in helping the company ? Dealers had to beg to sell cars (at huge discounts) and were killed on flooring costs .
Talk is cheap but excuses are even cheaper, GT2 = too expensive and widdowmaker / GT3 OMG a sunroof , I might scratch my Stand helmet / GT3 RS, not enough "hardcore" / Carr GT = we don't want any driver aids but help us we don't want to get killed so we have to sue etc etc .
Conclusion : if YOU would sit on the board you have responsibilities to every Porsche employee first to put bread on the table and keep the company in the black and would not give any considerations to some net forum "racers" who whine about not getting hardcore cars when Porsche actually builds a dedicated ............Cupcar........... but does it look good enough on Sunset Plaza with my Zaino wax ?.........
Now,where were you all you do gooders,experts and net forum F1 racing drivers in the early 90's when Porsche almost sold out to Daimler because they were close to folding ? So how come you guys did not do your part (read buying) in helping the company ? Dealers had to beg to sell cars (at huge discounts) and were killed on flooring costs .
Talk is cheap but excuses are even cheaper, GT2 = too expensive and widdowmaker / GT3 OMG a sunroof , I might scratch my Stand helmet / GT3 RS, not enough "hardcore" / Carr GT = we don't want any driver aids but help us we don't want to get killed so we have to sue etc etc .
Conclusion : if YOU would sit on the board you have responsibilities to every Porsche employee first to put bread on the table and keep the company in the black and would not give any considerations to some net forum "racers" who whine about not getting hardcore cars when Porsche actually builds a dedicated ............Cupcar........... but does it look good enough on Sunset Plaza with my Zaino wax ?.........
09-02-2006, 12:47 PM
#44
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Let's wait for the finished version before we cast judgment on der neue M3. These are pre-production, test car pics. How many test car pics do you look at and go wow? Get the hood right, put together a nice rear bumper like the V10 M5, and set it on some bigger than 18s, matched wheels that are cleaned up... it's like putting make-up on a woman. Makes a big diff.
The new M3 lowered nicely on a set of 19s or 20s is going to look great kinda like so:
I think the E46 M3 is going to be the 993 widebody cars from the looks perspective. It's got the classic BMW boxy style and add the flares to that... makes it sit so low and wide. I'm sure it'll get outsprinted by the incoming M3, but sometimes, it's not all about straight line speed as you GT3 owners can attest to.
The new M3 lowered nicely on a set of 19s or 20s is going to look great kinda like so:
I think the E46 M3 is going to be the 993 widebody cars from the looks perspective. It's got the classic BMW boxy style and add the flares to that... makes it sit so low and wide. I'm sure it'll get outsprinted by the incoming M3, but sometimes, it's not all about straight line speed as you GT3 owners can attest to.
09-02-2006, 06:56 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by Benjamin Choi
it's like putting make-up on a woman. Makes a big diff.
for women, if they look less than steller without makeup....... i will search for the next target.
