One performance upgrade for the GT3. What would it be..
10-02-2005, 04:08 AM
#16
RL Technical Advisor
Originally Posted by rockitman
Do you feel the motons with the standard GT3 geometry is better than the homolgated (RSR) geometry, shocks, springs of the GT3 RS ?
IMHO, the RS geometry is a fine upgrade for track work. I think the Motons (coupled with the correct springs), is far far better suspension than the Bilstein package used on the RS.
Its not a matter of either/or,.......its two different things designed and intended for different purposes.
I would further tell you that if I had to choose what to do with a car thats used for street AND track, I'd choose Moton's over the RS pieces.
Just my opinion, tho.
10-02-2005, 11:16 AM
#17
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Hey Steve, have you gotten a chance to dig into the hardware differences b/t the GT3 and GT3RS? A while back I think you stated that when the season winds down you'd look into it.
For me it's not an either/or, it's a 'both'.
Anyway, my interest in the RS suspension is along the lines noted by Marco Polo in this thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...lignment+gt3rs
I've tried different alignments, I've run PS2s and Corsas, both tires on street and track. My opinion is that the steering, while full of information, is somewhat non-linear and is 'busy'. It reminds me of my lowered, stiffened E36 M3 . . . it is indeed sharp and information rich, but it lost that creamy linear feel. In the GT3, I'm not talking about the lively rear end or even the twitchiness of the steering, but rather, the amount of steering input and subsequent steering corrections the car requires just for brisk driving out in the hill country (i.e., not even pushing things).
I'm thinking that the GT3 has non-optimized suspension geometry as with my E36, which geometry was corrected with the RS. The bolt-on retrofit kit with RS parts seems like it might cure what ails me as noted by Marco in the linked thread.
--------------------------
quotes from the mags:
For me it's not an either/or, it's a 'both'.
Anyway, my interest in the RS suspension is along the lines noted by Marco Polo in this thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...lignment+gt3rs
I've tried different alignments, I've run PS2s and Corsas, both tires on street and track. My opinion is that the steering, while full of information, is somewhat non-linear and is 'busy'. It reminds me of my lowered, stiffened E36 M3 . . . it is indeed sharp and information rich, but it lost that creamy linear feel. In the GT3, I'm not talking about the lively rear end or even the twitchiness of the steering, but rather, the amount of steering input and subsequent steering corrections the car requires just for brisk driving out in the hill country (i.e., not even pushing things).
I'm thinking that the GT3 has non-optimized suspension geometry as with my E36, which geometry was corrected with the RS. The bolt-on retrofit kit with RS parts seems like it might cure what ails me as noted by Marco in the linked thread.
--------------------------
quotes from the mags:
"The hubs benefit from a total redesign to make the most of improved dynamic camber control that results from new suspension mounting points. Monoballs in the front end are now adjustable like those on the rear and you can turn the suspension arms by 120 degrees to get even more negative camber. Of course, this is really only useful for race cars- as you really wouldn't want 4.0+ degrees of negative camber for road work. The result of this work delivers better control, reduces bump-steer tendencies, and serious setup possibilities for 2004 GT3 RSR."
Later, the mag states:
"What you do notice, however, is the front end's greater stability over bumps - especially when you're making the suspension work for it."
Later, the mag states:
"What you do notice, however, is the front end's greater stability over bumps - especially when you're making the suspension work for it."
The standard GT3's major flaw is its pattery, traculent front end. Prone to understeer unless confident, forceful hands are preapred to drive around the problem, it's the unhappy result of suspension geometry pushed too far from the optimum by the need to lower and stiffen the suspension. Built solely with FIA homologation in mind, the RS rights those wrongs with revised supension mounting points that are both more rigid and better placed to maintain optimum wheel travel and geometry in road racing applications. Combined with the now ubiquitous P Zero Corsa tyres. . . . the benefits are immediately noticeable."
The article goes on to state:
"The transformation in steering feel and response between the GT3 and the GT3 RS is sensational. The nodding motion has been banished too, thanks to slightly firmer springs and dampers and those rigid mounting points, but there's no deterioration in the 911's ability to absorb bumps. It's a beaut."
Then, in conclusion with the GT3 RS stealing the show:
"So the honors go to Suttgart. More importantly (not to mention depressingly for all you Porschephobes), the RS has addressed the formidable GT3's flaws so completely that the victory is nothing less than decisive. It's often asiad there's no such thing as the perfect car. From purely an evo perspective, having driven the GT3 RS, I beg to differ."
The article goes on to state:
"The transformation in steering feel and response between the GT3 and the GT3 RS is sensational. The nodding motion has been banished too, thanks to slightly firmer springs and dampers and those rigid mounting points, but there's no deterioration in the 911's ability to absorb bumps. It's a beaut."
Then, in conclusion with the GT3 RS stealing the show:
"So the honors go to Suttgart. More importantly (not to mention depressingly for all you Porschephobes), the RS has addressed the formidable GT3's flaws so completely that the victory is nothing less than decisive. It's often asiad there's no such thing as the perfect car. From purely an evo perspective, having driven the GT3 RS, I beg to differ."
10-02-2005, 04:48 PM
#18
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When I talked to the guys at Manthey Racing, they told me that their GT3 suspension kit created a better handling package than the stock GT3RS.
They ran the Nuerburgring on 7:41 on their suspension, that track is well known for being bumpy.
Stock GT3 7:49, GT3MM 7:41 link
Going with the GT3RS kit, plus custom springs and shocks, new camber plates, monoball rear strut mounts, and the Cup car caster/toe links is definitely the ultimate setup in my opinion..
They ran the Nuerburgring on 7:41 on their suspension, that track is well known for being bumpy.
Stock GT3 7:49, GT3MM 7:41 link
Going with the GT3RS kit, plus custom springs and shocks, new camber plates, monoball rear strut mounts, and the Cup car caster/toe links is definitely the ultimate setup in my opinion..
10-02-2005, 07:13 PM
#19
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I've tried different alignments, I've run PS2s and Corsas, both tires on street and track. My opinion is that the steering, while full of information, is somewhat non-linear and is 'busy'. It reminds me of my lowered, stiffened E36 M3 . . . it is indeed sharp and information rich, but it lost that creamy linear feel. In the GT3, I'm not talking about the lively rear end or even the twitchiness of the steering, but rather, the amount of steering input and subsequent steering corrections the car requires just for brisk driving out in the hill country (i.e., not even pushing things).
frayed -
having driven both cars too, i would offer up the opinion that the non-linear feeling in the steering when compared to an E36 BMW will always be there in a 911 because of the rear weight bias. no suspension is going to take that out completely. it has more to do with weight transfer and understeer (that why in a gt3 you always get on the brakes before turnin to "plant the front end". when the front end is planted, it requires less input to turn; when it is not planted, it takes more input to turn. you could put a RSR racing suspenion on your gt3 and it will still have that "feature", although somewhat diminished because of the stiffer suspension resutling is slightly less weight transfer effect
a 3series doesn't have that going on as much because it's front engine (no pendulum effect)
frayed -
having driven both cars too, i would offer up the opinion that the non-linear feeling in the steering when compared to an E36 BMW will always be there in a 911 because of the rear weight bias. no suspension is going to take that out completely. it has more to do with weight transfer and understeer (that why in a gt3 you always get on the brakes before turnin to "plant the front end". when the front end is planted, it requires less input to turn; when it is not planted, it takes more input to turn. you could put a RSR racing suspenion on your gt3 and it will still have that "feature", although somewhat diminished because of the stiffer suspension resutling is slightly less weight transfer effect
a 3series doesn't have that going on as much because it's front engine (no pendulum effect)
10-02-2005, 07:25 PM
#20
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Perhaps Healey, but I didn't find my C2 or C4S as figdety (I tracked both) and found the 997S to be significantly less busy. I dunno. . . perhaps I'm having an acid flashback from the good ol days and its affecting my perception of hte car. But, several others here have noted the frequent need for steering corrections with the GT3 and overall busy-ness of the steering and I 'get' what they are referring to. I'm talking way away from the limit the car cannot hold an intended line. . never had this problem with my other 911s.
BTW, have you driven the 997S? I'm not about to give up my GT3 for one, but it has a very linear, intuitive feel to the steering. My experience with a lowered M3 (had it slammed for a while before raising it), standard height C2, C4S and 997S all lead me to believe that the lowered 996 GT3 is slammed beyond the sweet spot in its geometry (toe/camber issues). . . along the lines commented upon by the mags.
BTW, have you driven the 997S? I'm not about to give up my GT3 for one, but it has a very linear, intuitive feel to the steering. My experience with a lowered M3 (had it slammed for a while before raising it), standard height C2, C4S and 997S all lead me to believe that the lowered 996 GT3 is slammed beyond the sweet spot in its geometry (toe/camber issues). . . along the lines commented upon by the mags.
10-02-2005, 08:27 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by frayed
Hey Steve, have you gotten a chance to dig into the hardware differences b/t the GT3 and GT3RS? A while back I think you stated that when the season winds down you'd look into it.
For me it's not an either/or, it's a 'both'.
For me it's not an either/or, it's a 'both'.
Yessir, I'm digging through that now and I'd reserve judgement on the overall suitability of the RS components until I see precisely what effects these parts all have on front & rear suspension geometry. I'll do that on the alignment machine,...
I'm with you on "both",......I just need to see what tradeoffs there might be for road use. The majority of my clientel use their GT-3's for track AND street usage,...
Until I do that, I'd repeat that installing Moton's (with the proper springs) on an otherwise stock GT-3, really transforms the handling behavior of these cars and with some valving variations, they ride better than any of the OEM Bilsteins.
10-03-2005, 04:45 PM
#24
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One performance upgrade for the GT3. What would it be..
10-03-2005, 09:33 PM
#25
LWFL/Clutch (3.8RS clutch), GT3 Seats, Console delete (especially if you have long legs) MOTON CS+ Springs, adjustable droplinks, Fikse's..and lot's of driving school.
Robin
Robin
10-03-2005, 09:45 PM
#26
Rhymes With Polo
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Originally Posted by cigarette1
Good luck on the sale,..now stop trying to hijacking my threads huh?
10-07-2005, 05:11 PM
#27
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The biggest performance upgrade for my GT3 would be to get a new driver, but barring that, I think the close ratio gear box would be my first choice. I have one in my Cup car, it makes it a totally different beast being able to get out of corners high in the torque band.
Bruce
Bruce
10-07-2005, 05:27 PM
#28
Three Wheelin'
When i regeard my car I thought I may have gone to close on the 2-3 shift.... now I think it's great...if ever I do this again I will shorten the others a bit more.
