PogueMoHone

Hijack here!

Isn't that R32 the best value for money on the planet!

Unhijack.

macfly

Colm, will the Cayman also replace of the GT3? I had heard rumor that the 998 would have a GT3 version, and that it would be quite a quantum leap over the current 996/997 cars, and also that there might be a son of CGT, but maybe that's what the 'super Cayman' will be?

CodeRed

GT2= 427 Cobra

GT3=289 Cobra

It's the German muscle car.

PogueMoHone

My source did not address the GT3, so any answer on my part would be speculation. However I am of the opinion that there will no 997 GT3 in NA. The 997 is an interim car (IMO), to be replaced by the 998, which will be aimed at the executive market, and the Cayman will be the performance model. This may not preclude a GT3.. a la Stradale.

Your reading of the tea leaves may yield a different (and more correct) answer, but nothing I have heard or read yet (from other purported sources) contradicts enough to dissuade me.

MetalSolid

Cort achived that 1:28 in the GT3 on what amounts to a warm-up lap, as he only did one full circuit before running outta fuel.

What sets the GT3 apart from the GT2 is it's unique NA engine - GT3 excites where the GT2 just scares.

bora

No, the Evo VIII is. R32 is a nose heavy pig on the track while
the Evo VIII is a comfortable dance partner as long as you keep the RPMs above 3700.

bora

This is an FYI:

As far as Willow big track times, a well driven 1989 E30 M3 J-stock club racer
which is essentially a bone stock car with DOT-legal R compound tires (Toyo RA1),
and a good but non-adjustable suspension weighing about 3000 lbs with a
driver (and a roll cage etc) and making about 200 HP at the crank does 1:37 to 1:36 depending
on the track and ambient temperature.

http://bmwclub.azcomputer.net/Archiv...ow_results.pdf


Based on this, a GT3 on Toyo RA1 (and not Hoosiers) should be at least good for
1:29-1:31 range at the big track at WSIR. I don't think a GT2 will more than a second a lap faster at WSIR and **that** is a HP track.
Sears Pt, BW, or Thunderhill would be closer. Which is one reason
why the M3s always do so well at Sears Pt.

I could have afforded a GT2, just bought the GT3 after having experience in turbocharged cars, and not liking the power delivery. If the big turbo rush suits you, great, GT2 is your car. If you prefer the power delivery curve of a nice NA engine, then GT3 is your car. My choice, and my money goes to naturally aspirated motor any time. So much easier to steer by throttle.

craigsduc

It,s awesome to see the responses to this post. I want all to know that I truly respect all opinions. Differnt strokes right? I simply felt there are those amongst us that bash GT2.s that don,t own one. I do as I knew then as I know now it is a more demanding car to drive at speed than a GT3...............PERIOD. Physics alone dictates this fact. I personally have had a few track cars and went pretty fast for quite a few years. Those cars were all normally aspirated, mildly powered, well suspended and set up. Times with the 944 were 1:40 with 190 horsepower and Carrera coilovers. Power was the limiting factor ( as well as the fact I was not then nor am I now a Pro ). This time around, I wanted a super car. The GT2 is a supercar. I don,t race it on the streets as we all know those that do should have them taken away . Keep it on the track.............period! I also have not taken my car to Willow( are you listening Macfly ? ) as yet as I now have a baby girl that makes me feel really guilty and selfish every time I drive my car ( solo of course ) or my bikes. This is to change soon. I was also selling the car previously but have been since awakened to just how stupid that would be too! I did manage to take the wife and baby to Fontana Sunday for the last day of the Festival of Speed. We took the new GMC crew cab diesel 4X4 .The three of us went out onto the track at lunch for the " 75 mph tour ". 75 mph MY *#@!!!!! The Lotus Elise in front of us made the mistake of doing what everyone else in front of him did..............HAUL *#@!!I had to do what was right too......right? Bury it and let it fly. After all.........I was on a racetrack, seat belts on everyone, and brand new Michelins! My 8000 lb truck hit 110 on the clock going into 1. The Lexus behind us disappeared in a trail of black turbo soot! If they ever put diesels like these into P cars, look out! Mid 400 horsepower with mid 800 ft/lbs torque would work nicely thank you very much. Banks is actually doing it this season in the Craftsman truck series ( I think ). Anyway, I love the track and miss it terribly. Count on seeing me there in the not too distant future. Be nice to me though as I am actually a nice guy. I just am very very competitive and plan on nipping at the heals of the good drivers...............with some seat time of course. I have no doubt the GT2 in the right hands will present some serious times..................I just hope I can get that good with it! Ive had the fun cars, its time to drive a super car! IMHO of course!! A for the truck, perhaps they will have a 8000 lb diesel SS truck class LOL to all!

supercup

Porsche needed the Mk I GT3 for racing homologation purposes. The success of the GT3 R/RS/RSR speaks for itself. The Mark II GT3 was for profit, the GT3 RS was to add a few trick parts for the GT3 RSR. The demand for the GT3 world wide was huge and the resources in the racing department were available to build 1,000 or so. They were a very profitable car for Porsche, as have been the Cup cars. Everything Porsche does right now if profit motivated, which is why there is no factory race program. Those resources are being used to build great cars and trucks on an accellerated basis, which will build the foundation Porsche can stand on for the next 20 years (they hope).

I think the GT2 was to quiet the nay sayers who were claiming Porsche had lost its way and was building cars that were no longer special. The GT2 was the car that met the "evil" reputation Porsche had over the years, a true drivers car. It was special, as are the GT3's.

They did such a good job from the 993 forward of improving the handling and eliminating snap oversteer of cars past, people began to think Porsche no longer built Porsche's. And then they built a truck! Their brand was being bashed for building better cars. The GT2 offered a car for a few, willing to pay up, that was a true drivers car, a super car and a down right scarey car!

The GT2 pricing was a based on the fact that the GT2 was not going to be for everyone and they would not likely sell 5,000, like they did Turbos. So the simply reduced the number built, raised the price based on exclusivity/scarcity and maximized the profit on the number of cars they could likely sell.

I think they learned on the RS America, which was priced less than the 911, that value doesn't alway sell well. Exclusive does and the GT2 did, in spite of the price. The GT2 was sought after and you could not get one. Then the GT3 came out in 2004 and everyone said, man those GT2's are expensive. They are not twice the car, but they are twice the price. And the world ecomomy changed as well and the depreciation commenced! So the second buyers of GT2's were the lucky ones and many of the first buyers now own CGT's so they are lucky as well.

Enjoy the drive.

JCM

Rolo

But will GM be around long enough to provide parts when it breaks??

Rolo

I have no dog in this fight. But how do you get the car being more responsive and more risky?

If I had the money, I'd love to own a GT2, but would not part with my GT3 to do so. It seems that everything I have read about the two cars points to the 3 being more responsive because of a better chassis?

I have no doubt the 2 would be a thrill ride, but how can risky be better. Should the chassis become = with the power I think you might have a point.

macfly

Bora, Willow is an odd track to compare times at because it is such a momentum track. The difference between different classes of cars is always quite surprising, and odd, there, look at the spec Miatas for instance.
I think you'll find that any car on R compounds in the hands of someone who knows how to drive it will be in the '30's. Did you see how brisk the stripped out BMW 2002's there too, quite an eye opener. Then there's Tyson, one of the guys who works at TRE in Burbank, he does 1.35's there in a 1969 911 with a bigger '80's engine, and he's on street tires!
The trick at WSIR is getting in the '20's, but you really have the be a Cort Wagner for that.

(BTW I was under the impression that the E30 was a much lighter car, closer to 2,600 track ready?)

PogueMoHone

"I have no dog in this fight. But how do you get the car being more responsive and more risky?
If I had the money, I'd love to own a GT2, but would not part with my GT3 to do so. It seems that everything I have read about the two cars points to the 3 being more responsive because of a better chassis?
I have no doubt the 2 would be a thrill ride, but how can risky be better. Should the chassis become = with the power I think you might have a point."

Rolo,

There is no contradiction in my comment, and "I have no dog in the fight" either (since I own both) but in my opinion the GT2 is a superior car..it's only an opinion worth as much or as little as any other.

Your comment is telling and strikes at the core of the problem " It seems that everything I have read........" and is part of the myth, people are forming opinions about the GT2 based upon what they read and not actual experiences. Forget about the reading, drive both and then form your educated opinion. When did you ever buy a car without test driving it?

Now for clarification:

By responsiveness I meant when you get on it (like press the gas) you better have your ducks (wheels) in line..because everything happens faster in a GT2. It's more risky because there is less margin for error and therefore requires good technique.

How can risky be better?

Amusement parks have been exploiting this situation (or the perception of it) for years.

bora

A JS M3 weighs about 3K lbs with driver. Factory weight is 2735 + roll cage + driver is about 3K wet when all is said done.

My point is that if one is driving a GT3 on R compounds and one is in the high 1:30s (as in 1:37-1:38 range) before doing anything else to the car, the driver needs more seat time and education.

And WSIR is NOT a momentum track by any means, I don't recall any other track where I spend with throttle flat to the floor. I presume Fontana is like that too, but I don't do rovals.

Mike Buck

The definitive answer to the GT2 vs. GT3 debate has already been posted in another forum


a later response agreeing in principle with the above



https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...=175057&page=1