macfly

Stuka, I was at many of the BMW CCA events over the last 3 years, silver Z8 with many mods, and silver M3smg with many mods, what were you driving?

I am not talking out of school saying this, as I posted the same on the POC board, but the BMW CCA run a really great show, and you get considerably more track time than at the POC event too. POC run many of their events at Streets of Willow because it is the track they feel is the safest for the cars and drivers, as there is tons of run off, and absolutely nothing to hit.

Coming from BMW and Driving Concepts track days, where you may see two spins in a whole weekend, I have never seen so many cars spin. Judy said that the engine in the Porsche is always trying to get back to the front of the car, and I saw that with my own eyes. Every run group had a car or two or three spin, I guess it is part of the Pcar mythology. I had my first ever spin too, doing something the M3 would have handled with ease! That is why I think POC likes Streets so much.

They do go to all the other tracks too, but it is a very big San Diego > LA > Santa Barbara ownership, so Willow is both nearest and it is a reasonable track to rent. My feeling about Streets is it is too tight for a road car, you're always battling the cars weight. It would be a great giggle in a shifter cart!

I felt the way you did about big Willow, and I love the northern tracks, except Sears, too much concrete for my blood, but with time big Willow has become a great friend, and the joy of getting the laps right is the same. Feeling all that throttle steer in two, the slingshot up the hill in 3, cresting 4, down into 5 just right. I love 5, the camber holds your drift as you carve into 6. I wish they'd add in a few corners to break up 6>9, but then that is the section that allows it to be called the Fastest Track in the West.

bob_dallas

OK, so no judgement about POC, or you, or anyone else here (sensitivity level has been high around here lately ) but I wouldn't say this is a "typical" Porsche phenomenon or a typical DE. I don't normally count spins but 2-3 per run group is high.

As for spins being part of the Pcar mythology, I disagree. True the engine is in the rear but that doesn't mean you have to spin. Takes some getting used to, and older cars are much more prone to do it, but you can use it to your advantage with a little practice. I know a lot of drivers who turn very fast laptimes (and some slower one's too) that typically don't even spin once in a 2 day DE. A lot of DEs have a rule - sometimes a 2 incident rule that can get you booted from the DE to try and keep safety at a maximum. Sometimes that's a little extreme (up to subjective opinion) but it's a least a good check/warning point.

Also, you'll get two opinions on this but I'm not in the camp that says you HAVE to spin to find the limit - I think that's inherently a dangerous attitude to approach it from. Not that I've never spun, nor do I condemn people for spinning because it happens to the best occasionally.

Steve in FL

bob_dallas: The Suncoast DE program has a 2 spin rule (1 can be educational and will involve a long chat with the Chief Instructor, 2 and you're done for the day). It's very rare that the rule has to be invoked. Since the Suncoast program is supposed to be one of the model PCA programs I wouldn't be surprised to see it become part of the unified DE standard that PCA is trying to introduce.

macfly

The Suncoast DE program has a 2 spin rule
The very fact that the rule is for spins says a lot, the two strikes at BMW CCA it is for going off track. I don't wish to start anything up here about what car does what better, but after my years in BMW's the Pcar is certainly more atp to spin, as I both saw and discovered. I said elsewhere, and I'll say it again, the M3 platform is much easier to drive fast than the GT3, and a lot more forgiving. The Porsche requires learning a whole new set of instincts, and for you to become a much finer driver. That is the challenge I wanted, and signed up for with no regrets.

The POC did a morning of skid pad work for us to feel out our cars, but the skid pad can't teach you the new instincts that are nessecary for the Porsche, it can only show you what you need to learn, imprinting that knowledge on your instincts and reactions is the real trick. Doing that requires experience, practice, tuition, and then more experience, practice and tuition. My own personal Mt Everest, and one I'm excited to climb!

They do take some driver adjustment, and seeing those cars spin made me realize I am not alone. I wasn't counting exactly who did what when, but 1, 2 or 3 spins per run group of 25 or so cars means no one would have spun more than once in the day anyway, and as I mentioned Streets is a very tightly wound little circuit, more suited to a shifter cart than a road car.

POC ran an exemplary event, there were just many, many new drivers, and being the first day of the year out for many of the experienced ones they were feeling out the winter's mods, or their new tires etc. I certainly didn't mean to give you the impression it was 'spin fest', its just coming from BMW land there were a lot more spins than I'm used to, that's all.

OldGuy

Mac I was there on Sat. I saw your car and the other GT3.
I wiped my drool off though before you got back.
I was there with some other rennlisters. We had three
993 TT's there arena red, silver and the midnite blue one right
across from the white 993 race car you took pics of. I am thinking
of going to the one on Feb 28th at willow. I really did like the 2 GT3s that
were there. Yours was the brand new one correct?
I did not run I just watched but after seein the smiles I think I need
to go with the TT!

macfly

Old Guy, if work allows I may well head back out, but with well over 100 cars out last Sunday, and less than an hour of track time each it is a lot of sitting around for little seat time.

Steve in FL

macfly: We call it a two spin rule but it is in fact more akin to the two strikes BMW rule you quote - a spin or two or more wheels off the track gets you a chat with the Chief Instructor where the driver and, if an instructed driver, the instructor get to explain the incident. The car is also checked for damage.

stuka

Well, see this thread.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49291

I would avoid Savage BMW if I had a Z8 like you.

This is crazy, every run group had multiple spins! If this was at CCA, many people would have been going home early. Mr. Black Flag doesn't mess around.

As for me, yeah, Sears has lots of walls, but I usually drive fast enough to miss the apex and slow enough to be able to re-draw the line when headed for the walls.

Anyway, I am pretty sure that the March Sears Point school is full anyway, but the April Button Willow will be so much fun for the Turbo, I can't wait.

And are you the guy who imported his own Z8? If so, I think I have seen you at Button Willow.

macfly

And are you the guy who imported his own Z8? If so, I think I have seen you at Button Willow.
Yep, that's me, took the old Z8 to many track days, and it really was a great car at the track too, not a hint of a tail spin in two years! You are right about the CCA, but at POC spining and staying on the tarmac is ok, two wheels off, waving black, 4 off, come in for a chat. 2 x 4 off and you're done.
I think this is because Pcars do spin, and they seem to do it in a tightening rotation around the CoG, which means it is a very tight spin, and usually you stay on the tarmac. Many of the spins I saw were in the same two relatively slow spots, and didn't seem to take the car off the track, so it wasn't a big deal.

krm

Macfly, some stunning shots. Sorry to be off topic, but what equipment do you shoot with for those car-related photos. Thanks.

Enjoy your GT3 in good health!

/k

macfly

what equipment do you shoot with for those car-related photos.

Canon EOS1Ds
24-70 zoom
70-200 zoom
2x tele converter

krm

I would have guessed you would use Canon body and glass. Nothing but the best!

Thanks and looking forward to more stunning shots.