champignon

I actually owned a BRZ for 1 year, during which time I forced myself to put 2000 miles on it :-)

They have 200HP or did when I got mine, but it's woefully inadequate for a sports car. The interior is cheaper looking than what you get with a base (rental car) level Chevy Aveo, and there is zero soundproofing.

Aside from that, I rather liked the car :-)

AnthonyGS

I've owned and driven a vast multitude of fast cars in my lifetime. Very few make me as happy as my lowly 996 or 91 ZR-1. Both cars have fatal flaws that many are quick to point out. The 996 is literally go kart like almost like a Miata but with an appropriate amount of power. It's also something you don't see on every corner. The ZR-1 has god's engine under hood: the LT5. Until you drive one you will never understand it but it's wrapped in a completely flawed C4 Corvette package. What a car!

honestly BMW sedans aren't nearly as fun as the AWD S and RS cars from Audi. I've owned quite a few of them. Nothing is faster when the weather deteriorates.

if absolute performance is all you care about then buy a newer Mustang or Camaro. They are ridiculously fast. Need a track car? Beat a new GT350 or Z28 for less money. They also haul people and groceries about as good as the M sedans until you get into a 5 series.

And lastly just like Jeremy Clarkson, I could never be happy driving a BMW because of the average BMW owner. It's like Dave Matthews. I'm not opposed to his music per se, but his fans are obnoxious.

You should rush out and buy as many BMWs as you can afford. You can get a lot of 318s for 20k. Instead of having time to troll the Porsche forum you'll be plenty busy fixing your cars instead. You are a BMW guy. I get it, why don't you? You'll hate a 911. 318s are where you need to invest.

champignon

I have a 2016 Golf R, which has the same Haldex system as the Audis you cite, plus is reputed from various head to head comparison tests to be more fun to drive and more responsive than Audi AWD S and RS cars. In the winter, I have Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 XL tires on it. I also have a 2013 135i Coupe that I use in the winter, with Blizzaks on it all around on 18" wheels in a square (not staggered) setup). These are my 2, "winter cars," although they both get some use year round, on summer tires.

I would much rather drive the 135i Coupe in any condition other than a very deep snowfall, which if possible I'd prefer to avoid driving in, period. The BMW is just a way more fun car to drive, hands down. I did put the PPK performance pack, boosting the HP on the BMW by around 20, this past spring, but the comparison is from last winter's driving when the two cars had almost identical HP (292 for the VW vs. about 300 for the BMW). RWD beats AWD in anything other than really bad traction situations, in this type of car (hot hatch or small sedan). Good snow tires can make up for the traction differences between AWD and RWD in most driving situations.

Most online reviews I have read of recent year Audis like the ones you describe have been anything but flattering when it comes to describing how much fun they are to drive.

Obviously, and self-evidently, from your post, this observation is not limited to owners of BMWS.

AnthonyGS

The Haldex system is rubbish and it's used in the TT and A3 (and Golf). It might even appear in the Q5. Using the launch control in a real S or RS Quattro car is something everyone should experience at least once.

RWD does not always beat AWD. It's been pointed out on this forum more than once that the C4s is faster around the 'ring than a C2.

The BMW forum called, their village troll is apparently missing.

oceancarrera

Porsche always had something going on from the start. From lively to kwik to fast to bullet. What was BMW doing? 2002tii pretty, but a pig. After that nothing special until the M's appeared. Still not fast...Porsche always faster. BMW, Audi, Mercedes always followed, never taking a chance to be fast/handing first. Porsche was and is still fast though out. On top of that, Porsche never let the Corvette sit on top of the speed throne....ever. What car maker stayed with one model, hardly changing it all these years? Only one.

AnthonyGS

Really? Okay history lesson time. 1990 Corvette ZR-1, ft. Stockton TX, 3 FIA world speed records and four other class records. Finally beaten by a prototype VW never sold to public on a better faster track. The Corvette did it with a new assembly line engine. The ZR-1 parked in my garage by my 996 has a commemorative sticker for the FIA world records. I'm pretty dang sure my antique Corvette will leave any of its contemporaries behind and many newer cars built today especially after 100 mph. They didn't call it The Beast for nothing.

http://www.zr1netregistry.com/Information/PerformanceRecords/WorldRecords.aspx

So do FIA world records count to you? The ZR-1 was faster than the exotics of its day and was just a cobbled together pile of American can do. Would you like to see video of a nickel balancing on the edge of a 25 year old 67k mile idle my engine too? Yes the beast is that smooth .

And poking around the 1990 911 turbo top speed was 169-171. I'm pretty sure 175 for a 24 hour average has that covered by quite a bit. It's kind of interesting to note that none of the test magazines of the day ever really saw top speed in a ZR-1. They just didn't have the facilities available to them that are available today.

And my dad, who actually drove a ZR-1 in Ft. Stockton noted the track there being a 5 mile oval bleed off a lot of speed in the corners. Dad wanted companies to do high speed testing on the 9 mile circle in Pecos TX instead. It was definitely a faster venue.

oceancarrera

I was talking about stock production cars in a general sense.

Mike Murphy

Isn't Porsche the winningest manufacturer in the 24 hours of Le Mans?

AnthonyGS

The ZR-1 is a factory production car. It's also a Corvette. And it was also faster than any other car of its day. I'm pretty certain that counters your Porsche has always been faster than the Corvette claim. I'm often wrong myself.

Yes Porsche has the most LeMans wins.

oceancarrera

The ZR1 is and was a limited production car unlike Porsche turbos that were in every show room decade after decade. The 1975 930 Turbo had 260hp at 2500 pounds. Corvette had a... real collector car...car crushers loved them (easy crush) with those rusted through frames...a pig.

champignon

Car race results are entirely irrelevant to anyone who owns a car to enjoy driving in normal situations. Porsche has made some good cars, BMW has made some good cars, and so have some other manufacturers. This thread was started having nothing to do with wither or not Porsche makes good cars; they obviously do. The thread was about what a PITA it is to buy a good Porsche, as opposed to other makes.

And it is a huge PITA, and in my opinion, not rewarded in reality with what you get, in comparison to the extraordinary effort that has to be put out.

AnthonyGS

Aluminum doesn't rust, genius. In 1990 GM produced more ZR-1s than Porsche did 911 turbos. Both are low production cars. We're not talking about a Taurus. You were wrong. I even gave you an easy out as everyone is wrong at times. Instead you went the route of the OP. You'd fit in better with the BMW crowd.

AnthonyGS

I know you probably won't be able to grasp this concept, but I'm going to give it one last try anyway. Maybe the problem is the buyer/shopper and not the marque. Perhaps? I had no problems buying a Porsche. Your experience is probably unique to you.

oceancarrera

Steel frames live and learn back then. OK so you say Corvettes are superior cars for the last 40 years compared to Porsche. I don't believe that.

Mike Murphy

I found the opposite to be true. Most Porsche people take really good care of thier cars. Many are garage queens are not driven hard, most are in really good shape.

When looking for M3s and M5s on the other hand, most were beat up, scratched, higher mileage, etc. I attributed this to a number of reasons. A BMW can be driven to the grocery store, to the movies, to church, on a track, by a teenager. While a Porsche could be driven in all those cases, they usually aren't. They are usually not someone's primary only car. Not anywhere near the level that BMWs are. So I found that finding a good 911 is actually pretty easy to do. They don't sell that fast, they made a bunch of them, and most are in great shape compared to other brands.

I am guessing that a point you made about why some people are getting bent out of shape and investing a year or two, traveling all over the US, to find the perfect car, is more valid. For those folks, this is a hobby, and like a lot of hobbies, people start to become obsessed. I take your point, here, that folks are a little too crazy about a car. For this point, Porsche isn't THAT special that people need to obsess over. There are plenty of other specific models of cars that are way more interesting and valuable to start a car collection over.