808Bill

^ I agree with most of what JT and AWDGuy said.
I would drain the oil as stated above, cut open the filter and look for bits, drop the sump, send oil off to be analysed...If all looks good, plan on the solution and have it installed by a certified installer.

Always wanted 1

First of all let's get one thing straight; I'm not trying to flame your company. I'm doing my due diligence. Like I said, I've already done my research on your product and chose it to be the solution, now I'm researching the work done by your shop. I completely understand that you need to prequalify both the condition of the engine and you have to prepare and qualify me, the customer, for the possible eventuality that other items might be involved in the solution. I do apologize that the way some of my comments were written may have been misconstrued as comments about your company, in reality, they are directed at my frustration that this and other problems exist from Porsche itself (why can't we just replace the bearing, the frustration that a car with 20k miles can be a basket case, etc). That being said, I will contact you directly with my concerns.

bull3t

I agree with jaetee. You likely have a dual row bearing that is completely fine. If it's not broken don't fix it. Check other parts that have probably gone bad from just sitting there, like the aos bellow. How does the car drive?

Always wanted 1

and if you remove the source of the contamination and replace the lubricant, the damage that is done is done. If no symptoms persist afterwards, what is the difference other than the wear that prematurely occurred? All engines wear, the described situations are what determines why one engine lasts 70k miles and another will go 250k+

cbracerx

As a data point, I'm a long time p-car DIY owner. Just got a 40K mile '01 986S. It has an excellent maintenance history, buuut - no IMS done, and the RMS was leaking. Running great, but plugs and coils were original. I took it apart, found a single row IMS bearing in perfect shape, seals still on it but full of engine oil (grease long gone) and replaced with the LN Single Row Pro after a lot of research. I also replaced the following items because they age out and it's a lot easier to deal with them while the car is mostly apart. Now my wife and I can drive this car for quite a while with no concern on my part that a common item is going to surprise us. So yes, it can seem like LN is suggesting you might want to replace "a lot" of items when the main job is the IMS bearing. And after buying a low mileage car I can appreciate that you would think everything is still nice and new and doesn't need updating. But these items age (fluids, belt, hoses, water pump impellers, throwout bearing grease), get superseded with better designs (coils and IMS) and can have issues from lack of frequent lubrication (chain guides). Some are just wear items that are inexpensive ($300 ish) compared to the labor to get to them (clutch, pressure plate). Experience has shown me my ownership (and resale) is better when I address items like this at the outset in a big "maintenance surge" when the car is apart. I can't speak for LN, but it sounds like they know this and know the cars and their weak points since the advice you are getting mirrors my experience.

Replace Oil Fill Tubes (leaking)
Replace AOS (PM)
Replace RMS (leaking)
Replace IMS (LN Single Row Pro)
Replace Plugs and Coils 997 version (PM)
Oil & Filter Change
Air Filter
Climate Filter
Fuel Filter
Water Pump, Hoses & Coolant (PM)
Belt Replacement (PM)
Clutch, Pressure Place, TO bearing (PM & WIWIT)
Stainless Brake Flex Lines (PM)
Brake Fluid Flush (PM)
Replaced Undertray rubber cooling scoops (repair)
Wheel Stud Conversion (usability)
New Wiper Blades (PM)
Secondary Cat Bypass Tubes (fun factor)
Convert Exhaust Bolts to Stainless Studs (usability)

Always wanted 1

It drives fine, leaks nothing, there are no signs that I should be concerned about anything other than statistics. The suspension seems tight, but if I'm honest, I don't have anything to compare it to. Because of the way it was purchased I don't have service records, but looking at the condition of each and every part of the car I'd bet that anyone here who looked st it would say it was well taken care of. The car is from Georgia and that state requires a vehicle inspection every year. The inspection was done every year and the mileage reported shows it never sat for even a year. It was two owner, the first owner put 3500 miles on it in a little over a year, the second owner put a majority of the miles on it in years 2-10 and the last 6 years it was driven 500-700 miles a year. I've driven it myself about 300 miles already, some shorter stints and a few 60-70 mile drives. I'd think if there were any immediate gremlins they'd have poked their heads already.

cbracerx

I'll add the following example of why low miles isn't as important as age and previous PM.

I bought a 2002 996TT with 16k miles. Absolutely immaculate condition with complete maintenance history, all done by the dealer.

These cars have the following known issues:

1. Clutch Accumulator
2. Rear Wing Hydraulic Actuators
3. Alternators (shared with the 986/996)
4. Coils (and they wear plugs quickly)

Guess what was wrong with the car at 16k miles? 1 & 2. And number 3 happened at 23K miles.

Now I'm not suggesting that any of these should have been addressed in advance. They are expensive and don't cause catastrophic engine failure or make the car crash.

I addressed number 4 at 21K miles as a PM item.

My point with this example is that we know these cars now, and we know what to look out for. Use that knowledge to keep yourself ahead of the curve.

Flat6 Innovations

I don't care about that "percentage". Thats the figure that was settled on in the Eisen suit, it means nothing to me.

There's lots of things that can make an engine fail a pre- qualification. Just like there were a lot of things that would make an aircraft fail a pre- flight inspection when I worked on the flight line 20 years ago. That said, we go out of our way to ensure that customers are not "stuck" if an engine fails pre- qual:

-If a car is shipped to us from more than 250 miles away (thats most of them) we now have a checklist of data that a local shop must collect and provide to me for review, before we will ship the car here to carry out the invasive inspection. This is an additional step, but it keeps cars with obvious problems from being shipped, just so I can plug into the car and "down" it in less than one minute. IF an engine fails this local inspection, its game over for us working with them, on the spot....(Unless they want to forego the preventative work, and join in on our repair side of the house. This way the issue is repaired, and the IMSR is carried out as a portion of that procedure.)
Doing this has worked well, we no longer have issues where people send us cars that fail right away, and our schedule also benefits from this. There's nothing worse than a car being driven here from far away, or hauled, only to have me down it in less than one minute.

-We only collect the pre- qualification labor money as a deposit up front, so it an engine ends u being "downed" the customer only pays this amount to us. Nothing more. No obligations, or disappointment. No pressure. If the engine fails pre- qual, the person can do anything they want, and we won't pressure or coerce them. I tend not to even make recommendations, as those can be considered coercion.

-When this happens we give the owner 3 choices:
1- Do nothing. We put the car back together, and they can drive off into the sunset
2- Have us go invasive, make the repair, then finish the work with a preventative package
3- Join the reconstruction side of the house here, and have the engine completely updated with all our processes.

I have had to deal with this a lot, and as the cars get older, we accept fewer and fewer IMSR jobs. More and more things occur to create a disqualification. I try my best to mitigate risks that could lead to someone having a complaint. Sometimes that means that we simply stop offering something.

Or a timing chain roller... Or part of a rod bolt. Or a chunk of a cylinder, or a wrist pin clip. Yes, I have documented all of those things before. Do this 700 times, and invasively inspect them all, and you'll find the same.

---------------------------
Just like technicians, and mechanics, there are varying qualities of cardia surgeons. One of my customers who is a pediatric cardio-thoracic surgeon has told me a lot of the stories about how people in his line of work vary, and we've talked about how mechanics repair their mistakes, and surgeons bury theirs.

He told me that the "hacks" in his world are referred to as having "cold, hard, hands of death". They may make poor judgment calls, take stupid risks, or decide to perform a procedure on a patient that is not healthy enough to withstand the procedure.

I lived through this with my dad for the last 5 years of his life. Been there, done that.


The IMS Retrofit procedure is, and always will be aimed at preventing issues. Elective IMS Retrofits are the primary objective for the components, and always will be. In the earliest of days this procedure wasn't even accepted by the main stream. The things that are done today are due to the trails we blazed over a decade ago, when Porsche Service Writers told everyone that an IMSB replacement was impossible.

Then either you didn't have the right installer do the work, or you didn't research things enough.
On day #1 I developed the IMS Retrofit procedure, on day #2 I developed the pre- qualification procedure that is used today, and has evolved.

This has been common place since the very beginning. My first Technician M96 Engine Class was held in 2007, and even those attendees received the IMSR pre- qualification procedure checklist. The only thing that has changed has been the differing issues that come from longer time in service for engines, as well as higher mileage. Like everything we do, the process is continually updated.

Incorrect. It is more common place to hear about it now, since there are more Certified Installers that must live by an agreed upon "code of conduct" regarding pre- qualifications. I have also been stating this on forums for years, and even though people are generally dense, they finally listen after about 5 years, or so.

Just like it shouldn't be. If a hack installs an IMSR product into an engine that's dying, or has an issue, that product is placed in harm's way. This isn;t fair to the customer, the product, or the developers.

What happens is normal shops work on "book time" for jobs, and if a technician sees an issue with an engine, they know that if they say something about this issue that they'll lose money on their check at the end of the week; because, that job wasn't completed. Its not their product. At the end of the week their honesty costs them money.

Consider that last paragraph and you'll see what the real issue is. At LN or Flat 6, this won't happen. You are going to the source, the Inventors, the Developers, and the Manufacturers.


__________________

Sneaky Pete

I'm with you! The more one drives an older low miles car the quicker issues will surface. I don't care how new it looks because it is old on the inside.

DTMiller

That this thread exists demonstrates that the bolded isn't entirely true. Anyone who researches this issue and reaches a point where they think having Jake or Charles do the retrofit will be as simple as calling and scheduling it to be done didn't research it well. These are well-known facts in this arena.

Flat6 Innovations

The same goes for ANY of the Certified Installers. They live by the same cod of conduct that we do, and we constantly work with them to help them make the proper judgment calls. The private Certified Installer forums that we have for all of us to share experiences, have some radically experienced things posted, and some of the stories with owners are quite interesting.

Always wanted 1

I want to state, again, that I'm not trying to flame LN. I'm asking as a customer doing my due dilligence. I understand that if there are particles in the oil, filter, sump, etc that the risk to the company is not in their best interests. I also asked what cam deviation has to do with the IMS bearing. Yet, metal particles can be found in ALL filters, dumps, oil, etc. what is the threshold? Yes, I've read other threads that state IF the cam deviation is greater than 6 degrees it could indicated several things, including IMSB issues. While I might have missed the thread explaining why, I haven't seen one.

I diagnose issues in systems far more complicated (in a sense) than this for a living. I'm one of a half dozen or so people in the world that can do this for a company whose product can be found ALL over the 911, albeit I do so for a different division. When I let someone work on my vehicles it is my nature and need to understand exactly what is happening.

My concern is with something the sales guy said about the project in its entirely. I'm simply asking if anyone here has actually had the work done by LN. If so, how was the experience.

Sneaky Pete

The OP is an Engineer!! That explains it Seriously, you have two of the best 996/997 guys (Charles and Jake) on the planet chiming in here. I was skeptical as well at one point but then I had a hard dose of reality. My car did not suffer a IMS failure but it did have a failure. You need to read more.

I would take the car to whoever is closer. If your car is what you believe it is then there is no issues....right?

billh1963

A simple search on here will easily answer all your questions. But, it sounds like you know it all already.

You aren't the first bright person to have examined and questioned every nuance of the M96 engine. Those answers exist. Probably the best thread on here to answer everything you can think of (and things you haven't) would be this one: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...wn-engine.html

Flat6 Innovations

Alwayswanted1,
It sounds to me like you should perform the work yourself. If someone called me and stated the things that you've just posted, that would be my recommendation.

Why? When the IMSB fails, or starts to fail the IMS assembly ends up running askew in the crankcase. This makes the cam deviations alter due to timing chain slack, and the fact that the IMS Tensioner is transmitting load to the IMS assembly, further enhancing this. The bank 1 cams see this more than bank 2, as they are driven by the end of the IMS that is supported by the bearing that fails.

In last weeks M96 102 Hands- on Engine Rebuild School I had 12 enthusiasts that comprised the class. The first morning I asked "raise your hand if you are an Engineer"....

7 people of the 12 raised their hands.

I then said "I'll warn you now, I'll **** you off before the end of this class". They laughed, we had a good time for the next 4 days. They loved it when I told them I barely graduated from high school, in Special Ed classes. I think they thought I was kidding.