A very very nice road car....but a on the track?
11-13-2016, 07:29 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
A very very nice road car....but a on the track?
After 18 years absence I finally got back on the Streets of Willow Springs. My last times at this short but fun track were in my RS America and my '95 993, both manual trans. Yesterday was a DE event in my 2000 996 Cab, tiptronic. I was feeling nervouse since the recent failure of my tiptronic. Would the replacement from LA Dismantler survive? And of course anxiety over all the other modes of 996 failure had my pockets puckering.
Anyway, I joined the Novice Time Trial group with hopes of getting back up to speed. The skid pad sessions gave me a good sense of what the tires would do and how the steering would feel, and it taught me that on continuous counterclock wise throttle steering exercises the PMS Off light would come on. And on clock wise of the same, the Brake Fluid light would come on. I checked the fluid to be sure, and it was just the sender getting gravity effects.
Moving to the small streets track however showed the car's deficeits...and some nice things as well. I did two 20 minute track sessions...just feeling the car out (and my own rusty skills)...not wanting to hammer on it for a full 30 to 40 minutes each.
The nature of the track for my car was all second and third gear...hitting somewhere near 6000 rpm in third at the top of the hill entering turn 2, down shifting into second gear for the turn and winding it out to an easy 5500 rpm down hill into the turn 3 sweepers...braking not as hard and powering back up the hill and staying in 2nd to 6000 just as I hit turn 4, a tight hair pin. Powering out I then short shifted into 3rd for a less twitchy throttle going down hill through the off camber turn 5. Hard on the brakes and down into second and then back on the gas through the 6 & 7 chicane and heading toward turn 8. Hard on the brakes again at 8 and back on the gas up the hill, shifting into third just before the pit entry to the track and flat out through turn 1.
The good -
The car never over heated...at the hottest the needle sat on the outer left edge of the 0 of 180...and all fans stopped when the ignition was turned off at the end of a session. Nor were there any indications of transmission stress. The up ****s all stayed crisp...and the down shifts were equally so and fast when under hard braking. I could not have shifted quicker in a manual.
The brakes were used hard (but not continuous threshold) and they didn't fade. These are the same stock pads that were in the car when I bought it last January.
The steering was easy to read and felt nice everywhere.
The less than good -
Let me preface that I think the 997 S coupe that I turned my back on would have been a much stronger car on the track. With the suspension and throttle mapping in sport mode, with the 55 extra hp and with the tip, I would have been significantly faster. But as it was for the 2000 Cab...
The tires. Well the 225/40 and 265/35 PS2 Michelins were not bad...but compared to the stickies on the other cars, these were simply competent.
The stock suspension. What felt nice and tight on the street and cruising on the freeway up to the track at 85 and briefly at 90...on the track it felt sloppy and loose. Expecially going up the hill into turn 2...the undulations in the track made the car feel like a drunk trying to get home. True the suspension is stock...many years and miles old...but it was what it was...far from crisp and firm.
The brakes didn't fade...but they also didn't grab and take control of the car the way I would have preferred. The S brakes would have been a big improvement.
The tiptronic. Shifts faster than a manual but never had that physical sensation of being directly connected to the engine. And I still don't trust it to be able to take the abuse of the track...short or long term.
The engine. Great for cruising...and modest canyon carving...but just not enough hp to compete with a new M4, a big new very hot Camero, two tuned RX8s, a tricked out NSX (old style), a well sorted VW R32, and a 2014 Boxster S w/ PDK. I was probably driving between 8 and 9 tenths...and going flat out might have closed the gap but I don't think enough. With the 997 S I would have been competitive.
The weight. In the hp to weight ratio I just wasn't in the sweet spot. Again the 55 hp gain in the 3.8 would have been a big jump up.
The driver. Well I was also not up to speed and form. The first session had me trying to find my old braking and turn in markers. At the same time I was trying to learn the car...and deal with my paranoia...on the few short straights my eyes nervously searched for warning lights. The uncaring confidence that I had in myself and the cars in my RS America and 993 days just wasn't with me yesterday.
As Clint said, "a man has to know his limitations"...and that of his car. The fact is that my wallet doesn't have the capacity for racing that it used to. That certainly made me more cautious when it came to the difference between driving 9 tenths and 10 tenths. And I'm probably only 8 tenths the driver I used to be. It certainly felt that way.
Nobody was taking lap times so I have no idea what they might have been. My 996 is a very nice car and it held up well but it would take some serious work to make it the track equal of the other cars in my group.
I wiser sticking to go karts...other peoples.
Anyway, I joined the Novice Time Trial group with hopes of getting back up to speed. The skid pad sessions gave me a good sense of what the tires would do and how the steering would feel, and it taught me that on continuous counterclock wise throttle steering exercises the PMS Off light would come on. And on clock wise of the same, the Brake Fluid light would come on. I checked the fluid to be sure, and it was just the sender getting gravity effects.
Moving to the small streets track however showed the car's deficeits...and some nice things as well. I did two 20 minute track sessions...just feeling the car out (and my own rusty skills)...not wanting to hammer on it for a full 30 to 40 minutes each.
The nature of the track for my car was all second and third gear...hitting somewhere near 6000 rpm in third at the top of the hill entering turn 2, down shifting into second gear for the turn and winding it out to an easy 5500 rpm down hill into the turn 3 sweepers...braking not as hard and powering back up the hill and staying in 2nd to 6000 just as I hit turn 4, a tight hair pin. Powering out I then short shifted into 3rd for a less twitchy throttle going down hill through the off camber turn 5. Hard on the brakes and down into second and then back on the gas through the 6 & 7 chicane and heading toward turn 8. Hard on the brakes again at 8 and back on the gas up the hill, shifting into third just before the pit entry to the track and flat out through turn 1.
The good -
The car never over heated...at the hottest the needle sat on the outer left edge of the 0 of 180...and all fans stopped when the ignition was turned off at the end of a session. Nor were there any indications of transmission stress. The up ****s all stayed crisp...and the down shifts were equally so and fast when under hard braking. I could not have shifted quicker in a manual.
The brakes were used hard (but not continuous threshold) and they didn't fade. These are the same stock pads that were in the car when I bought it last January.
The steering was easy to read and felt nice everywhere.
The less than good -
Let me preface that I think the 997 S coupe that I turned my back on would have been a much stronger car on the track. With the suspension and throttle mapping in sport mode, with the 55 extra hp and with the tip, I would have been significantly faster. But as it was for the 2000 Cab...
The tires. Well the 225/40 and 265/35 PS2 Michelins were not bad...but compared to the stickies on the other cars, these were simply competent.
The stock suspension. What felt nice and tight on the street and cruising on the freeway up to the track at 85 and briefly at 90...on the track it felt sloppy and loose. Expecially going up the hill into turn 2...the undulations in the track made the car feel like a drunk trying to get home. True the suspension is stock...many years and miles old...but it was what it was...far from crisp and firm.
The brakes didn't fade...but they also didn't grab and take control of the car the way I would have preferred. The S brakes would have been a big improvement.
The tiptronic. Shifts faster than a manual but never had that physical sensation of being directly connected to the engine. And I still don't trust it to be able to take the abuse of the track...short or long term.
The engine. Great for cruising...and modest canyon carving...but just not enough hp to compete with a new M4, a big new very hot Camero, two tuned RX8s, a tricked out NSX (old style), a well sorted VW R32, and a 2014 Boxster S w/ PDK. I was probably driving between 8 and 9 tenths...and going flat out might have closed the gap but I don't think enough. With the 997 S I would have been competitive.
The weight. In the hp to weight ratio I just wasn't in the sweet spot. Again the 55 hp gain in the 3.8 would have been a big jump up.
The driver. Well I was also not up to speed and form. The first session had me trying to find my old braking and turn in markers. At the same time I was trying to learn the car...and deal with my paranoia...on the few short straights my eyes nervously searched for warning lights. The uncaring confidence that I had in myself and the cars in my RS America and 993 days just wasn't with me yesterday.
As Clint said, "a man has to know his limitations"...and that of his car. The fact is that my wallet doesn't have the capacity for racing that it used to. That certainly made me more cautious when it came to the difference between driving 9 tenths and 10 tenths. And I'm probably only 8 tenths the driver I used to be. It certainly felt that way.
Nobody was taking lap times so I have no idea what they might have been. My 996 is a very nice car and it held up well but it would take some serious work to make it the track equal of the other cars in my group.
I wiser sticking to go karts...other peoples.
11-13-2016, 09:27 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
Great write up. If your suspension was in fact stock and original (2000 model year), then your suspension is basically shot and would never serve you properly on the track. I know from personal experience replacing my 100k miles suspension with brand new H&R coilovers makes a "night and day" difference. Also to expect your 2000 996 to be competitive on any level with a new BMW M4 (430 Hp, 400 torque) seems a bit of a stretch.
Reading between the lines it actually sounds like the car performed fantastic for a 16 year old Porsche 911 running on original suspension parts that probably wore out a long time ago.
Reading between the lines it actually sounds like the car performed fantastic for a 16 year old Porsche 911 running on original suspension parts that probably wore out a long time ago.
11-13-2016, 11:13 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
A small investment in newer shocks, NT01 tires and some decent brake pads will transform your car. Add in learning to drive it better and you should be passing the camaros and M4s, unless the tip cab is that much slower than the 6MT coupe.
11-14-2016, 04:26 AM
#4
Suspension is an easy fix, but to get that crisp handling on the track what you need is new bushings on all suspension links. they are a pain and very time consuming to change but all these ruber piece are like marshmallow after 16 years !
You can either go spherical joint if you have the money and will track a lot, but I think it will be overkill. You best bet is to replace them with brand new rubber pieces. These are the little things that will give you the right feedback and also give you the best out of your new shocks.
If you decide to change the shocks, the RoW030 factory is pretty good for road and track use, but go for the X70 (I believe that is the code), more track oriented factor setup if you can. Aftermarket PSS11 will also be nice but not factory, so they are never as good as something designed for the car IMHO
I am surprised the brake did not fade, you are either really good
or you have more braking power left on the table
You can either go spherical joint if you have the money and will track a lot, but I think it will be overkill. You best bet is to replace them with brand new rubber pieces. These are the little things that will give you the right feedback and also give you the best out of your new shocks.
If you decide to change the shocks, the RoW030 factory is pretty good for road and track use, but go for the X70 (I believe that is the code), more track oriented factor setup if you can. Aftermarket PSS11 will also be nice but not factory, so they are never as good as something designed for the car IMHO
I am surprised the brake did not fade, you are either really good
or you have more braking power left on the table
11-14-2016, 09:03 AM
#5
Burning Brakes
Anyone who tracks a 996, even a few times will upgrade brake fluid, pads, tires and maybe suspension components. These upgrades will transform the car.
Throw on some Fister modded cans so you can hear the car and you'll satisfy the lacking aural sensation as well.
11-14-2016, 10:52 AM
#6
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Seriously, I don't know how many recent threads there have been recently - took my 996 to the track for a DE and uh ohhhh....now I think I blew my engine. These are some fantastic cars, but, and if you are going for suspension, brake, tire upgrades that will make the car handle better at the track, get a deep sump oil pan with improved baffles and extended oil pickup tube. Also put on a spin on oil filter adapter for full flow filtering. And address the oil relief valve with upgraded one. Worth every $ it costs.
11-14-2016, 11:20 AM
#7
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
This was a carbrio with a tip, with street tires, with an unpracticed driver on a short technical course with a stock suspension and stock brakes. Can't expect much more than a nice trip to/from the track, can you?
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11-14-2016, 12:46 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
Porsche 996 Carrera 320hp 08:17.0 ’01 stock
BMW M4 425hp 07:52.0 '15 stock
Nürburgring 17.5 miles course. Considering the 996 is 14 years older and 100 hp short, I'd say that's a pretty respectable time over 17+ miles.
BMW M4 425hp 07:52.0 '15 stock
Nürburgring 17.5 miles course. Considering the 996 is 14 years older and 100 hp short, I'd say that's a pretty respectable time over 17+ miles.
11-14-2016, 01:26 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks to all for your suggestions and input. As many pointed out, my expectations were perhaps a little lofty consider the age of my car and the state of its tune. However I got everything out of the event that I wanted to. I got to drive the car in ways I would never do on public roads. I learned how the car behaves under extreme braking, cornering, and acceleration for extended duration. And I regained some respect for the tiptronic system though I won't track it again. In fact, looking back on the weekend, I won't track this car again...it is a great daily driver just the way it is. It did better than I expected but not as well as I had hoped. The 964 and 993 I tracked (in stock form) years ago were young cars compared to my 996 today.
Now I'm going to do some soul (and bank account) searching...we all know that the way to make a small fortune in car racing is to start with a large fortune. Another 996 coupe with manual trans and some track mods? A cheap track car (Miata...or some other disposable)? Karting? I think my next stop is the Jim Hall Karting track in Oxnard.
Now I'm going to do some soul (and bank account) searching...we all know that the way to make a small fortune in car racing is to start with a large fortune. Another 996 coupe with manual trans and some track mods? A cheap track car (Miata...or some other disposable)? Karting? I think my next stop is the Jim Hall Karting track in Oxnard.
11-14-2016, 02:38 PM
#11
The important thing is, you got out there and DID it. And look at what you learned...!!
As far as what you're gonna do - another 996 coupe with manual trans and some track mods is a 'spensive deal....I know. I have a ballin' *** 996 that's really competitive.......it's really, really fun, but man, it's not cheap!
A cheap track car is a very attractive idea (I'm thinking about a Spec Boxter), but a "race" car...you have to tow - - and that's an issue fo sho!!
More and more, I think about a cart... Really fun, really cheap (compared to a car) and you can tow it behind a car...as opposed to a truck...
Congratulations on what you did - and good luck with what you're going to do!!
As far as what you're gonna do - another 996 coupe with manual trans and some track mods is a 'spensive deal....I know. I have a ballin' *** 996 that's really competitive.......it's really, really fun, but man, it's not cheap!
A cheap track car is a very attractive idea (I'm thinking about a Spec Boxter), but a "race" car...you have to tow - - and that's an issue fo sho!!
More and more, I think about a cart... Really fun, really cheap (compared to a car) and you can tow it behind a car...as opposed to a truck...
Congratulations on what you did - and good luck with what you're going to do!!
11-14-2016, 09:27 PM
#12
Karting is fun. As a younger adult I did it for five years, however, on dirt ovals. I did one asphalt street race with my 150cc two stroke that burned methanol. Scared the CRAP out of me!
11-15-2016, 12:08 AM
#13
11-15-2016, 11:59 AM
#14
95+ mph, 1.5 inches above pavement, street curbs, hay bales, down hills over four blocks long with hairpin at bottom, watching a guy drive directly into a U.S. mailbox right in front of me. It was not a very well prepared circuit probably even dangerous just ask the guy who kissed the mail box! I think there was more but my brain has blocked them out! It was actually fun but frightening.
11-15-2016, 02:36 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
The attractiveness of karting is that it can be done on an "arrive and race" basis...you rent the cart and race against others in the same situation. It comes down to can you outdrive the other guy. This is the perfect arrangement since I live in a condo and have zero storage area in the complex. I can rent space to park a third car but the rules don't even let us wash our cars in a common area. For me, it comes down to bang for the buck. And I may have to face the fact that tracking my street car will cost more than I really am happy spending. I'm going to get the bushings and shocks replace just because its the right thing to do. The car is a very very nice street car. Karting may be the way for me to go.