C4S towed to Porsche dealer
03-07-2016, 08:29 PM
#46
Porsche called today with an update. To make a long story short, my IMS bearing failed. They claim that from the exterior, that the bearing looks to be intact, however, they decided to pull the bearing to get a view of the engine interior and discovered that it failed on the inside (their statement is it failed about 2" in).
So, Easy Care warranty will be there tomorrow to look at the engine. According to Porsche, it is up to them on how they will handle the claim. They mentioned that they found a new long block engine from Porsche in the U.S. but that the warranty company may only authorize a short block, or a used engine. He said the short block would need about 40 hours of Porsche's time to fully assemble the engine. I'm told this would be an updated engine with no (less?) risk of an IMS failure in the future.
Anyone have any experience with IMS bearings and Easy Care? I would be okay with either the long block or short block, but a used engine to replace my engine with 13K miles does not sound fair to me!
So, Easy Care warranty will be there tomorrow to look at the engine. According to Porsche, it is up to them on how they will handle the claim. They mentioned that they found a new long block engine from Porsche in the U.S. but that the warranty company may only authorize a short block, or a used engine. He said the short block would need about 40 hours of Porsche's time to fully assemble the engine. I'm told this would be an updated engine with no (less?) risk of an IMS failure in the future.
Anyone have any experience with IMS bearings and Easy Care? I would be okay with either the long block or short block, but a used engine to replace my engine with 13K miles does not sound fair to me!
Are we allowed to tell the techs we told you so? Anyone with any knowledge of this engine would have first drained the oil and second ruled out an IMS bearing until proven otherwise.
03-07-2016, 08:33 PM
#47
Race Director
Porsche called today with an update. To make a long story short, my IMS bearing failed. They claim that from the exterior, that the bearing looks to be intact, however, they decided to pull the bearing to get a view of the engine interior and discovered that it failed on the inside (their statement is it failed about 2" in).
You had it towed to a PORSCHE garage. I would say that is the correct place to tow the car. I now say that you may have misinterpreted what PORSCHE told you. The posters on these pages are far from being qualified mechanics. Most times, posters are only making suggestions. They have not heard your engine. Have faith, PORSCHE will find and put your problems right. GNAT is over dramatizing what he reads from you which in effect might not be correct or misinterpreted by you. As far as advice from Schnell. If you tell them not to start the engine again, what you gonna do if PORSCHE asks WHY? You are not a mechanic so say nothing. Let them 'do their job'.. Relax.. Don't sweat the small stuff.
You shouldn't necessarily second-guess everything your mechanic says any more than you should question every diagnosis your doctor makes - but mechanics and doctors, like the rest of us, do make mistakes. Paying attention to what's going on and asking questions when it seems prudent to do so - without coming across like a know-it-all douche - is probably a good plan regardless of the topic.
The other explanation why Porsche ran the engine is that it did not SOUND like a can of marbles. Obviously the poster thought it did and Porsche thought it didn't. There is no way in hell that Porsche or any other decent mechanic would even think of running an engine if further damage would be caused by them doing so. That's all I have to say on that matter.
OP, it's awesome that your engine appears to be diagnosed correctly now, and even awesome-er that you have a warranty in place to take care of things.
03-07-2016, 09:45 PM
#49
Bummer man. Hopefully the warranty stands tall for you. Fingers crossed for you.
About 2" in? What does that even mean? The dual row bearing is right about 2" and the single row is thinner than that. Pulling the bearing isn't going to give you a view inside the motor, just inside the IMS itself which isn't going to be enlightening unless things are really bad...
My guess is they maybe pulled the flange off and assumed all was well as the seal was in place. Then then either removed the seal or indeed pulled the bearing and found the true state of the bearing.
Of course now the real question is if the bearing was the cause or if it was taken out by something else...
Porsche called today with an update. To make a long story short, my IMS bearing failed. They claim that from the exterior, that the bearing looks to be intact, however, they decided to pull the bearing to get a view of the engine interior and discovered that it failed on the inside (their statement is it failed about 2" in).
My guess is they maybe pulled the flange off and assumed all was well as the seal was in place. Then then either removed the seal or indeed pulled the bearing and found the true state of the bearing.
Of course now the real question is if the bearing was the cause or if it was taken out by something else...
03-08-2016, 12:45 PM
#50
Race Director
About 2" in? What does that even mean? The dual row bearing is right about 2" and the single row is thinner than that. Pulling the bearing isn't going to give you a view inside the motor, just inside the IMS itself which isn't going to be enlightening unless things are really bad...
03-08-2016, 01:03 PM
#51
My bet is that the SA is on the clueless side and misreporting the information to both sides. I have little love for dealers, but I highly doubt the Techs are as incompetent as this makes them sound.
03-08-2016, 01:13 PM
#52
Rennlist Member
^ Although keep in mind that the techs at a Porsche dealer are probably not the gold standard when it comes to dealing with cars from 12 years and 2 generations ago. The real experts on 996s work in the independent shops. The dealer techs are going to be more concerned with warranty repairs on 991s. They are probably pretty good with 997s. Assuming there is no big communication issue between rectorbill and the internet, this situation is Exhibit A as to why you shouldn't take your 996 to a Prosche dealer for service. Either the techs or the SA are not competent. Seriously, if a bunch of internet knuckleheads like us can figure out that it was bad juju to start that engine without checking the oil filter and magnetic drain plug first, then whoever made the decision to do that is either too stupid or too ignorant (as in uninformed) to be working on these cars.
03-08-2016, 01:36 PM
#53
Seriously, if a bunch of internet knuckleheads like us can figure out that it was bad juju to start that engine without checking the oil filter and magnetic drain plug first, then whoever made the decision to do that is either too stupid or too ignorant (as in uninformed) to be working on these cars.
We don't know, however, what happened after that point. My guess is that the SA just sent the lot jockey out to bring the car into the shop. By the time the Tech got to it, it was too late. I'd even bet that rather than having their top Tech jump right on it (who may have known enough to stop everything), they probably have a lower level guy start the initial triage.
I agree with your premise though. If the Tech wasn't working as a Porsche Tech while the given model was on sale, they won't have gotten the training on it.
I wonder how difficult it would be to build a locking clamp to fit over the negative battery terminal so that in such situations you can disconnect the battery and then lock it so that it can't be used or removed without contacting you first...
03-08-2016, 01:44 PM
#55
03-08-2016, 01:52 PM
#56
Yes I have a bit too much skepticism and paranoia running through my veins. I'm not a "trust but verify" type of guy. More of a "distrust and smack them with a brick" type of guy
03-08-2016, 01:53 PM
#57
Three Wheelin'
Just a comment on the noise an IMS would make going out...
The bearing for my main cooling fan in the 98 Jeep Cherokee went out, lots of smoke when it did, and maybe some chirping or something before it went. Really no loud warning at all.
What's more, AFTER it went out the fan still moved a bit but there was no real loud sounds or anything alarming that was louder than the engine. So I ended up driving it another week without the bearing there and about 100 miles up North to have it fixed.
So yes, we would all like to think that a bearing will make this God awful noise and racket before it goes out, but sometimes they don't and it just happens more or less without warning.
The bearing for my main cooling fan in the 98 Jeep Cherokee went out, lots of smoke when it did, and maybe some chirping or something before it went. Really no loud warning at all.
What's more, AFTER it went out the fan still moved a bit but there was no real loud sounds or anything alarming that was louder than the engine. So I ended up driving it another week without the bearing there and about 100 miles up North to have it fixed.
So yes, we would all like to think that a bearing will make this God awful noise and racket before it goes out, but sometimes they don't and it just happens more or less without warning.
03-08-2016, 02:04 PM
#58
I'm not sure a cooling fan bearing is a good comparison anyway though as it's not really supporting anything (and was it the bearing or the clutch?). The IMSB, on the other hand, is supporting the IMS. Under the final stage of failure where the bearing throws the cages and ***** the IMS will then start wobbling around and doing bad things to your timing components as well.
I honestly don't know, but I don't think the coffee can sound is the bearing itself. I expect it is the other components in the engine doing things they are not supposed to (e.g. the IMS being loose enough to come in contact with other parts? Mistimed valves hitting the pistons? etc..). Just guessing though.
03-08-2016, 02:18 PM
#59
Shameful Thread Killer
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
03-08-2016, 03:20 PM
#60
Saw the car
I stopped in this morning to see the dealership and to understand their strategy to deal with Easy Care. I met with the service manager and the SA and they showed me the car. They pointed out that the bearing disintegrated from the inside and looked fine from the exterior. I could see ball bearings and metal shavings everywhere.
I specifically asked if they had dealt with Easy Care regarding an IMS bearing failure and subsequent engine damage. They said they did not recall dealing with them on an IMS issue but have dealt with them on engine failures and they have always handled it well. They gave me much more confidence that this will be handled correctly by Easy Care.
They mentioned that Porsche has one 997 engine in the US....a long block that would fit the car if they get the go-ahead from Easy Care. I'm assuming this engine would minimize the chances of having the same thing repeat again as I believe improvements have been made to the design.
Now we just wait for the Easy Care representative to stop by the shop and take some pictures and get a final determination.
I specifically asked if they had dealt with Easy Care regarding an IMS bearing failure and subsequent engine damage. They said they did not recall dealing with them on an IMS issue but have dealt with them on engine failures and they have always handled it well. They gave me much more confidence that this will be handled correctly by Easy Care.
They mentioned that Porsche has one 997 engine in the US....a long block that would fit the car if they get the go-ahead from Easy Care. I'm assuming this engine would minimize the chances of having the same thing repeat again as I believe improvements have been made to the design.
Now we just wait for the Easy Care representative to stop by the shop and take some pictures and get a final determination.