C4S towed to Porsche dealer
03-04-2016, 10:20 AM
#16
The only thing they have to go on before turning the key is the customer's description of the issue. If the description matches the potential for a catastrophic engine damage no one in their right mind says "fvck it, let's start it up and see what we think it sounds like".
Obviously you are not in your right mind. Please go back to your gutter guard, WD-40, and g11 tattoo. You obviously have no place of value in a thread like this.
03-04-2016, 10:26 AM
#17
If they haven't inspected the oil and filter and removed the sump plate or removed the IMSB flange they can't be sure of that.
The only 100% way to rule it out is to look at the bearing itself. If the filter and sump are clean you might be OK, but debris just might not have circulated enough yet.
03-04-2016, 10:32 AM
#18
Rat Balls
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Scottsdale AZ, USA
Posts: 3,636
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
13 Posts
One time, I started my 996 and immediate heard a sound that sounded exactly like "marbles in a can". I called my Indy and his response was, "That's not good...where is the car?". I gave him my address and 20 min later he showed up.
First thing he did was open the engine bay then look for leaks under the car. Second thing...he started the car!!!! The sound was loud and immediate. Third thing he did was reopen the engine bay to show me that the cooling fan had cracked and the sound was basically the fan blade hitting the cracked housing (think baseball card and bicycle spokes).
I followed him back to his shop and 30 mins and $50 later I was back on the road.
Moral of this story? I guess Porsche mechanics do start engines because they are not as paranoid about IMS failures as we are...and every loud sound from the engine sounds like "marbles in a can"...even when it sounds exactly like a baseball card in your bicycle spokes, which sounds nothing like "marbles in a can", except to us, because we are paranoid about IMS failures...
First thing he did was open the engine bay then look for leaks under the car. Second thing...he started the car!!!! The sound was loud and immediate. Third thing he did was reopen the engine bay to show me that the cooling fan had cracked and the sound was basically the fan blade hitting the cracked housing (think baseball card and bicycle spokes).
I followed him back to his shop and 30 mins and $50 later I was back on the road.
Moral of this story? I guess Porsche mechanics do start engines because they are not as paranoid about IMS failures as we are...and every loud sound from the engine sounds like "marbles in a can"...even when it sounds exactly like a baseball card in your bicycle spokes, which sounds nothing like "marbles in a can", except to us, because we are paranoid about IMS failures...
03-04-2016, 10:57 AM
#19
Instructor
Based on what every qualified mechanic should know about IMSB I see no reason why Porsche (apparently) did not immediately inspect the oil, filter and sump. Then, if finding no sparklies, removing the transmission and seeing no apparent damage, why they wouldn't remove the flange and inspect the IMSB and then borescope the engine. Either the OP has done a poor job listening to his service adviser or that dealership is screwed.
03-04-2016, 11:07 AM
#20
UPDATE
First of all, I do have an Easy Care extended warranty that was purchased through the Porsche dealer when I bought the car used with 6500 miles on it.
I called Porsche this morning and they still do not know what is wrong with the car. I again brought up the IMS bearing issue and asked how they knew it was not a failed bearing that was causing the problem. He reiterated that all the mechanics, when they heard the engine, believed it was the IMS bearing. However, they assure me that this is not the problem. I asked if they looked at the bearing to verify it was intact, but he did not believe they had. He said other things, that he could not list, led them to this conclusion. I asked him to please let me know how they were so sure it was not the IMS. He promised to call me back.
All I got was that they were trying to do everything they could to determine the cause without dropping the engine and taking it apart. They are aware that I have the Easy Care warranty and are trying to find the cause with the least amount of work and cost. I think they are very close to making the decision to pull the engine and start taking it apart.
I called Porsche this morning and they still do not know what is wrong with the car. I again brought up the IMS bearing issue and asked how they knew it was not a failed bearing that was causing the problem. He reiterated that all the mechanics, when they heard the engine, believed it was the IMS bearing. However, they assure me that this is not the problem. I asked if they looked at the bearing to verify it was intact, but he did not believe they had. He said other things, that he could not list, led them to this conclusion. I asked him to please let me know how they were so sure it was not the IMS. He promised to call me back.
All I got was that they were trying to do everything they could to determine the cause without dropping the engine and taking it apart. They are aware that I have the Easy Care warranty and are trying to find the cause with the least amount of work and cost. I think they are very close to making the decision to pull the engine and start taking it apart.
03-04-2016, 11:10 AM
#21
Based on what every qualified mechanic should know about IMSB I see no reason why Porsche (apparently) did not immediately inspect the oil, filter and sump. Then, if finding no sparklies, removing the transmission and seeing no apparent damage, why they wouldn't remove the flange and inspect the IMSB and then borescope the engine. Either the OP has done a poor job listening to his service adviser or that dealership is screwed.
03-04-2016, 11:51 AM
#22
Race Director
Early on I mentioned to them that I had a magnetic oil pan drain in the car so they could inspect that for metal. I did not ask them is they drained the oil, but I can tell you that they have not mentioned draining the oil. They have removed the transmission, but the person I talked to could not verify if they had physically observed the IMS bearing.
The techs are probably following the guidelines set forth by the warranty company as determination is made what is wrong.
From the warranty company's point of view, far more noises do not require engine replacement/rebuilding, so there will be a pretty deliberate -- read slow -- advance towards a final resolution.
As an aside, I heard of a problem with a brand new car just off the delivery truck at the dealer. The engine sounded sick. The factory was contacted. Back comes a request to check something. The techs were like what the heck the engine is sick, shot, needs to be replaced.
But they did as they were directed to do and as they expected the check found the suspected problem not the cause of the engine's noise/behavior.
In comes another request from the factory. Again the check/test came up with zilch.
This went on a time or two more until finally after a few days of this in comes the authorization to remove the engine a new one was on its way from the factory.
While a tech/owner may jump to a conclusion, and often the right one, the factory or in your case the warranty company doesn't jump to conclusions but follows a certain path, exasperating sometimes to others, in reaching a decision.
03-04-2016, 11:59 AM
#23
Shameful Thread Killer
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I'm just glad they are doing all this goofy work on their dime and not yours. Be interesting to see what the conclusion is, but I"m with the team here that it's something in the cam drive area. Either the IMS related, or chain tensioner, pad, etc. But - that's just a guess. Once they finish toying with the trans, maybe they will pull the engine filter and all will be revealed.
03-04-2016, 12:35 PM
#24
Race Director
If you're a 40-year-old guy who rolls into the ER with chest pain, they aren't going to immediately shave your chest, rub it down with iodine, and cut you open for a transplant. On the other hand, the ER staff take chest pain complaints very seriously, so they're also not likely to slap you on the back and tell you to jog around the block.
It's OP's car - he should be as bossy/worried/whatever as he sees fit. If he wants to err on the side of being possibly overly cautious - or if he prefers to say f*** it and go do some high-speed miles to see if an Italian tune-up will fix the car - that's his choice.
If my mechanic initially said they thought my IMS was failing and later recanted, I would feel justified in asking what caused them to change their mind(s) - especially if no additional diagnostic work had been done.
It's OP's car - he should be as bossy/worried/whatever as he sees fit. If he wants to err on the side of being possibly overly cautious - or if he prefers to say f*** it and go do some high-speed miles to see if an Italian tune-up will fix the car - that's his choice.
If my mechanic initially said they thought my IMS was failing and later recanted, I would feel justified in asking what caused them to change their mind(s) - especially if no additional diagnostic work had been done.
03-04-2016, 03:10 PM
#25
Drifting
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ephrata, PA, USA now. Originally from the UK
Posts: 3,075
Likes: 0
Received 22 Likes
on
17 Posts
One time, I started my 996 and immediate heard a sound that sounded exactly like "marbles in a can". I called my Indy and his response was, "That's not good...where is the car?". I gave him my address and 20 min later he showed up.
First thing he did was open the engine bay then look for leaks under the car. Second thing...he started the car!!!! The sound was loud and immediate. Third thing he did was reopen the engine bay to show me that the cooling fan had cracked and the sound was basically the fan blade hitting the cracked housing (think baseball card and bicycle spokes).
I followed him back to his shop and 30 mins and $50 later I was back on the road.
Moral of this story? I guess Porsche mechanics do start engines because they are not as paranoid about IMS failures as we are...and every loud sound from the engine sounds like "marbles in a can"...even when it sounds exactly like a baseball card in your bicycle spokes, which sounds nothing like "marbles in a can", except to us, because we are paranoid about IMS failures...
First thing he did was open the engine bay then look for leaks under the car. Second thing...he started the car!!!! The sound was loud and immediate. Third thing he did was reopen the engine bay to show me that the cooling fan had cracked and the sound was basically the fan blade hitting the cracked housing (think baseball card and bicycle spokes).
I followed him back to his shop and 30 mins and $50 later I was back on the road.
Moral of this story? I guess Porsche mechanics do start engines because they are not as paranoid about IMS failures as we are...and every loud sound from the engine sounds like "marbles in a can"...even when it sounds exactly like a baseball card in your bicycle spokes, which sounds nothing like "marbles in a can", except to us, because we are paranoid about IMS failures...
03-04-2016, 03:40 PM
#26
1) Makes the sound at start up. While possibly an IMSB failure, I have yet to read about one that didn't happen while the car was in motion.
2) Calls a mechanic he obviously knows well and presumably trusts (basing this on the mechanic making a house call). This case sounds like a shop he is not very familiar with.
3) Mechanic looks under the bonnet before asking him to start the engine. It's not said, but presumably the saw the broken fan there and knew what it sounded like.
#2 and #3 are key points to answer your question. Having "your guy" and knowing you can trust them goes a long way. Gonzo was also right there at the time so he had the chance to question as object as he saw fit. The OP, on the other hand, was not there and not involved in any of the decisions that could (quite literally) make or break the engine.
That said, however, I would have still questioned him in that case for what he was thinking (and maybe Gonzo did and left that part out). Given the answer of "I suspect the fan" I would have jumpered the fan to run it without starting the engine to see if I agree if it was the sound I heard.
So now to finally return to your question, you are still the idiot in my opinion.
03-04-2016, 04:00 PM
#27
I sure hope it is not on my dime, however, that remains a risk. While I have the Easy Care warranty, purchased through this very Porsche dealer, I understand that these are not "open and shut" cases. The warranty company has to agree that this is a warranty issue! I did authorize the dealer to drop the transmission and I'm sure they feel authorized to do the "other" diagnostic work prior to any feedback from the warranty company. They are trying to get to the point of being able to have the warranty company come into the shop to look at the car.
03-04-2016, 04:07 PM
#28
Rat Balls
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Scottsdale AZ, USA
Posts: 3,636
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
13 Posts
Let's see shall we?
1) Makes the sound at start up. While possibly an IMSB failure, I have yet to read about one that didn't happen while the car was in motion.
2) Calls a mechanic he obviously knows well and presumably trusts (basing this on the mechanic making a house call). This case sounds like a shop he is not very familiar with.
3) Mechanic looks under the bonnet before asking him to start the engine. It's not said, but presumably the saw the broken fan there and knew what it sounded like.
#2 and #3 are key points to answer your question. Having "your guy" and knowing you can trust them goes a long way. Gonzo was also right there at the time so he had the chance to question as object as he saw fit. The OP, on the other hand, was not there and not involved in any of the decisions that could (quite literally) make or break the engine.
That said, however, I would have still questioned him in that case for what he was thinking (and maybe Gonzo did and left that part out). Given the answer of "I suspect the fan" I would have jumpered the fan to run it without starting the engine to see if I agree if it was the sound I heard.
So now to finally return to your question, you are still the idiot in my opinion.
1) Makes the sound at start up. While possibly an IMSB failure, I have yet to read about one that didn't happen while the car was in motion.
2) Calls a mechanic he obviously knows well and presumably trusts (basing this on the mechanic making a house call). This case sounds like a shop he is not very familiar with.
3) Mechanic looks under the bonnet before asking him to start the engine. It's not said, but presumably the saw the broken fan there and knew what it sounded like.
#2 and #3 are key points to answer your question. Having "your guy" and knowing you can trust them goes a long way. Gonzo was also right there at the time so he had the chance to question as object as he saw fit. The OP, on the other hand, was not there and not involved in any of the decisions that could (quite literally) make or break the engine.
That said, however, I would have still questioned him in that case for what he was thinking (and maybe Gonzo did and left that part out). Given the answer of "I suspect the fan" I would have jumpered the fan to run it without starting the engine to see if I agree if it was the sound I heard.
So now to finally return to your question, you are still the idiot in my opinion.
I shudder to think that I supported Hurdi's opinion, but we RLister's do tend to be more paranoid. I also nearly barfed my shorts when I walked out one morning and saw a puddle under the left side of the engine that looked exactly like chocolate milk. Intermix!!!! Took it to the same Indy and it was (of course) a cracked coolant tank. I asked about the color of the puddle and he shrugged and said that the coolant was fine in the tank. He figured the drip just picked up dirt on the way to the garage floor.
So...in my 3 years, I experienced both an IMS Failure and the dreaded Intermix... only to discover that I didn't. Here's the thing...if I wasn't a Rennlister, I would have probably saved a few years on this old ticker.
I hope the OP's situation is similar to what I've shared, but it sounds like his mechanic is, as others have said, working through the process. The good news is they don't think its the IMSB.
But of course they would have to say that...after all, they started the engine...
03-04-2016, 04:18 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
Is this question related to this thread, or are we just talking, you know, in general?
And, I'm no mechanic, but wouldn't pulling the filter and the magnetic drain plug and heck, even the sump plate, be a helluva lot easier and cheaper than dropping the tranny?
Using the patient presenting with chest pains analogy (damn, we are a bunch of old men, aren't we?), wouldn't dropping the tranny be akin to doing a colonscopy before sticking a few sensors on his chest and doing an EKG? "You know, those chest pains COULD be sphincter related."
And, I'm no mechanic, but wouldn't pulling the filter and the magnetic drain plug and heck, even the sump plate, be a helluva lot easier and cheaper than dropping the tranny?
Using the patient presenting with chest pains analogy (damn, we are a bunch of old men, aren't we?), wouldn't dropping the tranny be akin to doing a colonscopy before sticking a few sensors on his chest and doing an EKG? "You know, those chest pains COULD be sphincter related."