Thoughts on speaker and amp upgrade?
06-30-2015, 04:43 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thoughts on speaker and amp upgrade?
I'm contemplating swapping out the speakers and amplifier in my 2002 with Bose. I've had an Alpine CDE-HD192BT headunit for a while and I'm happy with that. I'm looking for insight on speaker wiring. I want to reuse the OEM enclosures, which I realize limits the speakers that I can consider.
I'm thinking of wiring the front door and dash speakers together so that they form the front array. Would I just wire the dash and front door speakers in parallel on each side? Obviously that will change the impedance and mean that the impedance of the rear and front channel will be different.
Moving onto the subwoofer, I would keep it as is because I don't think it is possible to replace it with an aftermarket speaker given its small size. I believe that its impedance is 1 Ohm but have not measured it yet. What issues do you foresee in driving this an a 5-channel setup?
The current amplifier is pretty small and according the specs is rated for 25W per channel. The speakers I mentioned are rated for 50W so presumably something like an Alpine MRV-F300 would work?
What about wiring? Can I stick with the factory speaker wires?
Thanks for any thoughts and advice.
I'm thinking of wiring the front door and dash speakers together so that they form the front array. Would I just wire the dash and front door speakers in parallel on each side? Obviously that will change the impedance and mean that the impedance of the rear and front channel will be different.
Moving onto the subwoofer, I would keep it as is because I don't think it is possible to replace it with an aftermarket speaker given its small size. I believe that its impedance is 1 Ohm but have not measured it yet. What issues do you foresee in driving this an a 5-channel setup?
The current amplifier is pretty small and according the specs is rated for 25W per channel. The speakers I mentioned are rated for 50W so presumably something like an Alpine MRV-F300 would work?
What about wiring? Can I stick with the factory speaker wires?
Thanks for any thoughts and advice.
06-30-2015, 07:14 PM
#2
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Thoughts on speaker and amp upgrade?
My 2 cents:
1) No matter what head unit you choose it will be a big improvement over the original. The double din updates the look and are easy to fit in.
2) The more amp you can fit the better. The car is fairly loud and a lot of the better speakers are not very efficient. So at min, look for a good 5 channel amp. Ideal setup is a 4 channel amp and separate sub amp.
3) I would not connect the door speakers to the same channel as the front speakers. They are too fare from the front speakers - would creat a strange imaging issue. Use a separate amp with the door speakers and cross them over fairly low.
4) Consider replacing the factory speakers. This will give the biggest bang for the buck... The factor speakers are just ok, almost any aftermarket speaker is an improvement but there are a few 4" speakers out there that are truly outstanding.
5) I would consider replacing the rear Bose sub with a custom subwoofer. The Bose box just can't creat the level of low base a well designed custom box can.
No matter what you do it will be an improvement and a fun project.
Here are some picts of my system:
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B035CmvASxA943
Is a work in process (maybe overkill) but really sounds great...
1) No matter what head unit you choose it will be a big improvement over the original. The double din updates the look and are easy to fit in.
2) The more amp you can fit the better. The car is fairly loud and a lot of the better speakers are not very efficient. So at min, look for a good 5 channel amp. Ideal setup is a 4 channel amp and separate sub amp.
3) I would not connect the door speakers to the same channel as the front speakers. They are too fare from the front speakers - would creat a strange imaging issue. Use a separate amp with the door speakers and cross them over fairly low.
4) Consider replacing the factory speakers. This will give the biggest bang for the buck... The factor speakers are just ok, almost any aftermarket speaker is an improvement but there are a few 4" speakers out there that are truly outstanding.
5) I would consider replacing the rear Bose sub with a custom subwoofer. The Bose box just can't creat the level of low base a well designed custom box can.
No matter what you do it will be an improvement and a fun project.
Here are some picts of my system:
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B035CmvASxA943
Is a work in process (maybe overkill) but really sounds great...
07-01-2015, 01:08 AM
#3
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks talkenrain.
I've had my Alpine HU for a while and it did make a difference over the factory radio but I don't think it sound anything like it can. Given that it is a cab, I'm under no illusions that this will never sound amazing but there's room for improvement.
Interesting comment about the sound stage if the door and dash speakers are connected together. I'm trying to understand the setup that you're describing: you're driving the dash speaker from one set of amp channels, the front door and rear door speakers are driven from the other set of channels but the front door speakers, which are larger, are crossed over so that their mostly a low-mid source? I'm contemplating something like a Focal coaxial for the dash and rear doors (since I think the enclosures are the same).
Since I have a cab, the sub configure different to the coupe and it a single speaker in the passenger footwell. I would plan to drive this through the remaining channel of the 5-channel amp.
Any speaker and amp recommendations?
I've had my Alpine HU for a while and it did make a difference over the factory radio but I don't think it sound anything like it can. Given that it is a cab, I'm under no illusions that this will never sound amazing but there's room for improvement.
Interesting comment about the sound stage if the door and dash speakers are connected together. I'm trying to understand the setup that you're describing: you're driving the dash speaker from one set of amp channels, the front door and rear door speakers are driven from the other set of channels but the front door speakers, which are larger, are crossed over so that their mostly a low-mid source? I'm contemplating something like a Focal coaxial for the dash and rear doors (since I think the enclosures are the same).
Since I have a cab, the sub configure different to the coupe and it a single speaker in the passenger footwell. I would plan to drive this through the remaining channel of the 5-channel amp.
Any speaker and amp recommendations?
07-01-2015, 01:49 AM
#4
Rocky Mountain High
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I upgraded to a Focal amp and speakers in my 996. It made a huge difference.
07-01-2015, 02:39 AM
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Thoughts on speaker and amp upgrade?
Focal 4" speakers are an excellent choice (a bit bright for me but a good product). They make a range of 4" products but even the lowest priced are really good. In general they are not very efficient so I would recommend a quality to drive them.
I used MB Quart speakers in the front and back and a single 12" JL Audio for the sub in a custom box. An Alpine 4 channel amp and an Alpine sub amp. It's very important to use thick wire to supply power to the amps. My amps are mounted in the bonnet, I used #4 gauge wire directly to the battery.
Back to your setup. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the original intent of the door speakers are as subwoofers. I would keep them doing that task if you don't have space for a larger sub. Leaving the focal speakers to handle the higher frequencies in the front dash and rear locations.
If you didn't notice a difference in the head unit it's most likely because the original factory speakers are so awful they completely masked the improvement the head unit made...
I used MB Quart speakers in the front and back and a single 12" JL Audio for the sub in a custom box. An Alpine 4 channel amp and an Alpine sub amp. It's very important to use thick wire to supply power to the amps. My amps are mounted in the bonnet, I used #4 gauge wire directly to the battery.
Back to your setup. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the original intent of the door speakers are as subwoofers. I would keep them doing that task if you don't have space for a larger sub. Leaving the focal speakers to handle the higher frequencies in the front dash and rear locations.
If you didn't notice a difference in the head unit it's most likely because the original factory speakers are so awful they completely masked the improvement the head unit made...
07-01-2015, 11:50 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Well I went into the local Car Toys to pick up two pairs of Focal ISC100s for the front dash and rear locations and left empty handed. I ended up in a conversation with their installer about what I was doing. He'd done installations in 997s and 996s and we got talking about overall systems. What we ended up were the component Focals for the front door and dash (3-way with a crossover), can't remember what in the back, Kicker IQ1000.1 amp and a custom sub enclosure with larger sub in the passenger footwell. We ballparked the cost with install at $3k. Quite an upsell from $300 for a couple of pairs of ISC100s! I don't really see myself spending that much - at least not in one go. So I think I'll go for a pair of ISC100s in the front and do some A/B testing by fading to the front and playing.
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07-02-2015, 01:26 AM
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Thoughts on speaker and amp upgrade?
Ha ha, good old car toys - up sell city. I went there when I started my journey to my system. I did get some ideas and got to listen to a lot of equipment but in the end couldn't believe all the crap up selling and my prior knowledge of audio disagreed with most of what they told me the real clincher for me was when I asked to see pictures of some of the 996/997 installs. They could only show 1 and it was a hack job. If they have done them in the past, they will have pictures.
Back to the real story... The component systems are great and in a very quiet car you may be able to appreciate the difference but for me, I wanted to stay within the capabilities of my environment. Knowing how loud my car is with the exhaust system, there was no chance I'd be doing that much critical listening. I wanted a system that could play loud enough and gave the base kick I wanted and a smooth response without distorting and without going to the extremes.
Get the 4" coax focal and be done with it, or spend a ton and then try to convince your friends all the modifications to your car was worth it.... A lot of people here have tried a lot of different products but all come back to the best bang for the buck.
IMHO
4" coax Hertz = good (a little bright)
4" coax Focal = better (all around good fit)
4" coax MB Quart = best (hard to find, not efficacy at all)
Back to the real story... The component systems are great and in a very quiet car you may be able to appreciate the difference but for me, I wanted to stay within the capabilities of my environment. Knowing how loud my car is with the exhaust system, there was no chance I'd be doing that much critical listening. I wanted a system that could play loud enough and gave the base kick I wanted and a smooth response without distorting and without going to the extremes.
Get the 4" coax focal and be done with it, or spend a ton and then try to convince your friends all the modifications to your car was worth it.... A lot of people here have tried a lot of different products but all come back to the best bang for the buck.
IMHO
4" coax Hertz = good (a little bright)
4" coax Focal = better (all around good fit)
4" coax MB Quart = best (hard to find, not efficacy at all)
07-02-2015, 04:00 AM
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Thoughts on speaker and amp upgrade?
I'd do it in steps:
First, replace the dash speakers with 2, 4" coax focal speakers for starters. If you install them yourself (it's easy), I would remove the Bose woofers & tweeters from each speaker plate and use the original baskets to mount the focal speakers. If you like what you hear stop... You really don't need very high performance speakers in the rear. Using speakers with bright tweeters in the back distorts the sound stage. You want the majority of sound to come from the front, the rear is best used for fill (mid base) so spending a lot behind you on main drivers is not the best investment. After replacing the front speakers you'll get a feel for if you want/need more amplification. The focal speakers are not as efficient as the factory speakers so if it doesn't play loud enough for you, get a bigger amp... If after replacing the front dash speakers, you feel like you want to invest in the rear, go for it. I'd spend the rest of my budget on the subwoofer and amp (if needed). Again, if your happy with the 4" speaker upgrade. Stop!!! If you feel the need for more, keep going.
For me the biggest improvement was the front dash speakers. The second best was my sub. Adding really good amplifiers made a good difference also, the rear speakers where the least bang for the $$$
Are you in the Portland area? I'd be happy to meet and share what I've learned rather than using the forum...
First, replace the dash speakers with 2, 4" coax focal speakers for starters. If you install them yourself (it's easy), I would remove the Bose woofers & tweeters from each speaker plate and use the original baskets to mount the focal speakers. If you like what you hear stop... You really don't need very high performance speakers in the rear. Using speakers with bright tweeters in the back distorts the sound stage. You want the majority of sound to come from the front, the rear is best used for fill (mid base) so spending a lot behind you on main drivers is not the best investment. After replacing the front speakers you'll get a feel for if you want/need more amplification. The focal speakers are not as efficient as the factory speakers so if it doesn't play loud enough for you, get a bigger amp... If after replacing the front dash speakers, you feel like you want to invest in the rear, go for it. I'd spend the rest of my budget on the subwoofer and amp (if needed). Again, if your happy with the 4" speaker upgrade. Stop!!! If you feel the need for more, keep going.
For me the biggest improvement was the front dash speakers. The second best was my sub. Adding really good amplifiers made a good difference also, the rear speakers where the least bang for the $$$
Are you in the Portland area? I'd be happy to meet and share what I've learned rather than using the forum...
07-03-2015, 03:01 AM
#11
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks talkenrain. I'm in the Seattle area so not that far but not around the corner either 
I put the Focal ISC100 on the driver side dash and played, set the fader to front and played with the balance. My observations:
1. As you pointed out, they are not as loud as the stock speaker due to impedance, so I can definitely see needing a bigger amp.
2. They are clearer than the stock speakers but most of what I hear comes through the door speakers. I turned down all the bass but the door speakers are still what I hear the most and they sound muddy. So I can see replacing those.
3. The ISC100s do not want to fit into the stock enclosure. I measured the factory speaker the dimensions are quite a bit smaller than any of the 4" speakers that seem to be available, which means that I'm not sure how I would get them to mount even if I modified the black plastic factory speaker cradle. I tried to rig up a mounting solution without the speaker cradle but it didn't really look very robust. Do you recall the specific model of the MB Quarts that you're using so that I can compare dimensions?
Thanks!
I put the Focal ISC100 on the driver side dash and played, set the fader to front and played with the balance. My observations:
1. As you pointed out, they are not as loud as the stock speaker due to impedance, so I can definitely see needing a bigger amp.
2. They are clearer than the stock speakers but most of what I hear comes through the door speakers. I turned down all the bass but the door speakers are still what I hear the most and they sound muddy. So I can see replacing those.
3. The ISC100s do not want to fit into the stock enclosure. I measured the factory speaker the dimensions are quite a bit smaller than any of the 4" speakers that seem to be available, which means that I'm not sure how I would get them to mount even if I modified the black plastic factory speaker cradle. I tried to rig up a mounting solution without the speaker cradle but it didn't really look very robust. Do you recall the specific model of the MB Quarts that you're using so that I can compare dimensions?
Thanks!
07-03-2015, 03:47 AM
#12
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Thoughts on speaker and amp upgrade?
This is what I did.
This video is for the 986 but the speakers and panel are the same in the 996. Each panel is custom for each corner of the car so don't get them confused. The difference is the tilt of the speaker mount. Once the focals are properly mounted they will really shine...
If you're not satisfied with the results give them a few days before deciding what your next step will be (they will break-in and you'll get to know what (if any) improvements you'll want to make).
This video is for the 986 but the speakers and panel are the same in the 996. Each panel is custom for each corner of the car so don't get them confused. The difference is the tilt of the speaker mount. Once the focals are properly mounted they will really shine...
If you're not satisfied with the results give them a few days before deciding what your next step will be (they will break-in and you'll get to know what (if any) improvements you'll want to make).
07-03-2015, 08:36 AM
#13
If your doing an amp swap this plug should allow a plug and play installation. This is where you run your speaker leads to from your aftermarket amp. Then simply plug it into your car where your Oem amp was.
http://productfinder.autoleads.co.uk...528&pID=290217
http://productfinder.autoleads.co.uk...528&pID=290217
07-03-2015, 01:41 PM
#15
I'd do it in steps:
First, replace the dash speakers with 2, 4" coax focal speakers for starters. If you install them yourself (it's easy), I would remove the Bose woofers & tweeters from each speaker plate and use the original baskets to mount the focal speakers. If you like what you hear stop... You really don't need very high performance speakers in the rear. Using speakers with bright tweeters in the back distorts the sound stage. You want the majority of sound to come from the front, the rear is best used for fill (mid base) so spending a lot behind you on main drivers is not the best investment. After replacing the front speakers you'll get a feel for if you want/need more amplification. The focal speakers are not as efficient as the factory speakers so if it doesn't play loud enough for you, get a bigger amp... If after replacing the front dash speakers, you feel like you want to invest in the rear, go for it. I'd spend the rest of my budget on the subwoofer and amp (if needed). Again, if your happy with the 4" speaker upgrade. Stop!!! If you feel the need for more, keep going.
For me the biggest improvement was the front dash speakers. The second best was my sub. Adding really good amplifiers made a good difference also, the rear speakers where the least bang for the $$$
Are you in the Portland area? I'd be happy to meet and share what I've learned rather than using the forum...
First, replace the dash speakers with 2, 4" coax focal speakers for starters. If you install them yourself (it's easy), I would remove the Bose woofers & tweeters from each speaker plate and use the original baskets to mount the focal speakers. If you like what you hear stop... You really don't need very high performance speakers in the rear. Using speakers with bright tweeters in the back distorts the sound stage. You want the majority of sound to come from the front, the rear is best used for fill (mid base) so spending a lot behind you on main drivers is not the best investment. After replacing the front speakers you'll get a feel for if you want/need more amplification. The focal speakers are not as efficient as the factory speakers so if it doesn't play loud enough for you, get a bigger amp... If after replacing the front dash speakers, you feel like you want to invest in the rear, go for it. I'd spend the rest of my budget on the subwoofer and amp (if needed). Again, if your happy with the 4" speaker upgrade. Stop!!! If you feel the need for more, keep going.
For me the biggest improvement was the front dash speakers. The second best was my sub. Adding really good amplifiers made a good difference also, the rear speakers where the least bang for the $$$
Are you in the Portland area? I'd be happy to meet and share what I've learned rather than using the forum...
Ultimately I was thinking 2 or 4 speakers, head unit, sub and whatever amp is needed. I have the Bose system from a 02 with the rear sub deck removed to easily access my shock adjusters. I'm planning on getting a low profile 10" pioneer or JL and mounting it in the back seat. I'll post with specifics and get input before buying anything.