docmirror

So, "foamy oil" <> "aerated oil".

Noted.

In response to this: Anxiously waiting for Jake's reply

You wrote this: Never argue with a fool... The people standing around won't know which one is which.

Sorry, but in my book that's bad-mouthing. You can call a donkey a fish, but that doesn't make it one. Calling someone a fool, particularly a competitor makes me less likely to invest in your product, even if it were a better design, which hasn't been proven.

I'll be waiting for that failure analysis of the bearing that fails due to a jet of oil sprayed on it. Lemme know when you have them lined up, and how you did your FA to determine the oil spray was the factor.

I'll stand by my amateur theme(not owning a 996, nor ever had one apart), there is more than one way to engineer something. I noted that LN advises removal of the bearing seal. Presumably this is to aid in lubrication. But - I'm sure that none of the oil touching THAT bearing gets aerated as it's slung out of the cage area.

Flat6 Innovations

Its getting late, I'm going to bed :-)

TSMacNeil

...and we were doing so well.

Jake, do us all a favor and don't take the bait in these situations. It historically devolves into a pissing match...and you vowed to not engage in those any longer.

I have been a critic as I don't agree with your style or delivery, but respect your experience and talent. Stop wasting both on these types of exchanges...let your work speak for itself. You're a smart guy, pick your battles more wisely.

.02

Flat6 Innovations

Doing well probably because I have been busy with other things and haven't been here. I tried early on to stay out of it, let's blame it on the guy that said he couldn't wait for my response!

I'll remove that latest post and save it for a rainy day. No use in starting the storm all over again, especially when I really have zero reason to care.

TSMacNeil

No, "doing well" because you haven't been jumping in here being a ********...Our collective "doing well" isn't dependent on your work level, it's dependent on your internet decorum.

I get it...but it was still "bait". Many of us here are "type A" personalities and dont shy away from much, so we get "it".

Stay frosty, and let it roll on by. Keep doing what you do best, and let it stand on it's own.

Regarding the "aeration" topic, I can speak on that with some authority, although I'm no ME.

"Aeration" of a viscous fluid used for lubrication and cooling can lead to "cavitation" of said fluid against the subject object. A "cavitation" of fluid can be described as a physical separation from the subject. ( Aeration introduces air pockets into a fluid ) ANY surface separation of a cooling or lubricating fluid from a subject matter introduces a friction/heating value that was not there previously.

We deal with it with jet engine and 3000psi hydraulic components at altitude...its important.
And that is generally undesired.
eg- an over-speeding prop on a submarine "cavitates" and stalls the blades of the prop: making noise but no propulsion.
an aerated hydraulic pump "cavitates" and makes foam, but no actionable hydraulic pressure.
a bearing subjected to "frothy" "foamy" or otherwise "aerated" lubrication suffers...of that, there can be no dispute.

What level of... how much... and what kind of "ill" is acceptable in your Porsche?





I'll go with as little as possible.

dporto

"let's blame it on the guy that said he couldn't wait for my response!"


Hahaha very funny ... You can blame it on whoever you want, but the response remains yours Jake . I was actually hoping for a more "fact based discourse" with perhaps some specifics based upon your in-depth experience/research. While you may not agree with Pedro or his methods (I seriously question re-installing a used IMSB...) his video is well presented and seemingly balanced.

01slvr911

So in conclusion of an ongoing 15 year struggle of IMS bearing failure, the problem would be avoided if our cars are stored/garaged on an incline right? I see Rhino ramp sales skyrocketing!

docmirror

That's nicely done. You covered aeration and cavitation well. Wondering then - is the jet of oil sprayed on this particular bearing causing cavitation?(yes, I'm being facetious here) Is it causing aeration? Do you have any proof, or are you basing it on generally accepted lubricating principles(adj)? If so, can you site those general principles? Can you also go into deeper depth on the difference between aerated and "foamy"? Is foamy oil aerated, or is aerated oil foamy?

Finally, I can surely agree with you that less air of any kind in the lubricant is good, and even less is better. Now, all we need is some kind of causation of, or differentiation between a tiny orifice spraying oil onto a ball bearing verses a bath of oil contacting the same open case bearing.

Hopefully one of the real experts in this mechanical engineering debate has full test data showing the comparison results that they can share. BTW, from my limited understanding of metrology, measuring/quantifying air entrainment in viscous fluids is one of the greatest challenges in the industry.

Hurdigurdiman

I agree fully wioth your posting..,..plus his explanation of a Garage Queen, the clean oil penetrates the bearing through the bearing into the hollow shaft to eventually turn acidic to THEN return to the steel ball bearings and to rot them (No mention or the seal being cracked) does not make sense to me.

porschemikeandnancy

If you watch the video, here is where I disagree with the author. He says that cars that "sit mostly" (4-5k/year in use) have engine oil up to the bottom third of the IMS while at rest. And that the oil eventually pushes through the fixed seals in the IMS. Then the engine oil gets through to the other side and can wind up on the IMS shaft.


While cars driven 12k-15k/year do not have this happen.


What is "wrong" with this analysis is a simple accounting of time. Whether a car is driven 5k/year or 15k/year, the total amount of time the car sits is virtually the same. If I use an "average" speed of 30 mph, the difference in driving time/year is only 3.8% less time for the higher mileage car. In either case, the car sits at least 94% of the time.

JD ARTHUR

I love it when Jake posts. I learn something about these cars from almost all his posts. I don't care weather he has a personality that rub some folks wrong, there are plenty of us on here that like like his personality. I can't believe that someone won't buy the products that he developed because he has a personality they don't like. He doesn't even make money on them any more although that matters about as much as his personality. I shipped my car all the way to his shop (1500 miles) for three reasons, first I believed him to be obsessed with developing the best solutions for these engines and a many year track record of actually doing it. Second because his personality won't allow him to sugar coat anything, his knowledge formed his opinions not his theories. Third is he strikes me as being honest, he believes in making money the old fashion way, work for it and he became a success with that ethic. There may be other fixes for the problem, I don't have the knowledge or experience to give a worthwhile opinion.
I hope they all keep posting and it only sucks if any of them quit.

dporto

"He doesn't even make money on them any more"

And you know this how? I'd be willing to bet that Jake makes plenty of money on the parts that he's developed and patented for/with LN engineering (there is absolutely nothing wrong with this btw). Why else would he invest so much of his time and money to develop these parts? And, why would he be so bitter about the "ideas" that others have run with and made money on? Jake may not like "selling" his products (in the traditional sense anyway - his presence on this board is all about "selling" his brand) but he's surely a business man all the way - hence his military mentality when it comes to his brand/reputation (once again, nothing wrong with this).

DeWolf

Can someone tell me how this bearing oil squirter operates differently from piston oil squirters used in say GM LT engines? Wouldn't they suffer aeration as well?

Flat6 Innovations

The M96 has them too.. The aeration they create is a trade off for the cooling they supply to the underside of the Pistons. That said, lots of my engines no longer have them when I'm done with them. I have al alternative method of achieving the same result.

As far as selling things goes, well, I have been the developer for LN since before they were a company. Their very first product is alive and well on my 2.6L, 220 HP 356 engine.... That's the first set of Nickies cylinders.

Residual income on a development can't be assessed without a ton of crap. I do my work for LN and collect a check, or I invent and develop the component and sell it to LN or someone like them, if it's a BMW, MB or other engine. I care nothing about collecting from each sale, this for RS me to forge into new ground to find each awaiting paycheck.

Why am I so intense about this if I stand nothing to gain? Well, it's no secret that I like to fight. Come spend a weekend at one of my classes, in my world, and you'll see how I'm wired. You'll be entertained and educated at the same time. We have a lot of fun, just ask Ltusler, he was here last month for Rebuikd school and will be back in 2 weeks for the M96 Performance Engine Class :-)

golftime

Agreed. Jake's style may not be everyone's cup of tea, but his knowledge is unparalleled, and is based upon the experience from examining many, many motors; something the vast majority of us will never see. Does he offer up his services, sure, but then again, he is a businessman. But if you follow this forum, you will see he also offers a great deal of free advice to owners who are stuck with a problem.