Cost to fix 2nd gear?
Thread Starter
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,913
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Cost to fix 2nd gear?
My transmission knowledge is barely rudimentary so what I've seen about the issues with 2nd haven't made much sense to me.
What I do gather is that there are a few possibilities as to what the problem is, but beyond that I'm lost.
For the last year or so 2nd is a real PITA going up or down when the car is cold and the colder the weather, the more obstinate it is. Basically it feels like its in, but pops out when the clutch is released. Once it really does get engaged it holds just fine. After a mile or two it won't have anymore issues until its cold again. It seems to be getting worse though.
I swung by my new Indy (all he's done so far is the oil and a health check) to talk to him about it and he thinks it is a sleeve problem and says thats what he has seen the most of with the 996. The other option he thinks it could be (but doesn't seem to think is likely) is a bent fork.
So what say you that know more about transmissions than I? Is there another (more likely?) source of the symptoms? Does it sound like he is on the right track?
He comes highly recommended so I'm inclined to trust him, but for the price (the first really big ticket in 15 years!) I'd like to hear some other thoughts.
As far as the price all in to replace the sleeve and related parts, put in a new clutch (might not be needed, but at best its only about half done by now), and put in a LN IMSB replacement the rough range is 3500-4000. Given that 2500 seems to be pretty standard for a clutch and LN replacement and that the transmission parts are in the 1000-1200 range (at least that is what he was estimating from PET), that seems to be reasonable. Again, what say those that know more about it than I?
What I do gather is that there are a few possibilities as to what the problem is, but beyond that I'm lost.
For the last year or so 2nd is a real PITA going up or down when the car is cold and the colder the weather, the more obstinate it is. Basically it feels like its in, but pops out when the clutch is released. Once it really does get engaged it holds just fine. After a mile or two it won't have anymore issues until its cold again. It seems to be getting worse though.
I swung by my new Indy (all he's done so far is the oil and a health check) to talk to him about it and he thinks it is a sleeve problem and says thats what he has seen the most of with the 996. The other option he thinks it could be (but doesn't seem to think is likely) is a bent fork.
So what say you that know more about transmissions than I? Is there another (more likely?) source of the symptoms? Does it sound like he is on the right track?
He comes highly recommended so I'm inclined to trust him, but for the price (the first really big ticket in 15 years!) I'd like to hear some other thoughts.
As far as the price all in to replace the sleeve and related parts, put in a new clutch (might not be needed, but at best its only about half done by now), and put in a LN IMSB replacement the rough range is 3500-4000. Given that 2500 seems to be pretty standard for a clutch and LN replacement and that the transmission parts are in the 1000-1200 range (at least that is what he was estimating from PET), that seems to be reasonable. Again, what say those that know more about it than I?
Advanced
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
From: Minneapolis, MN
Thread Starter
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,913
Likes: 25
Thanks for the link.
It sounds like that is a fix in the early stages when the pop out is a "sometimes" thing, but my impression of the descriptions where this solved the issue is that mine is happening more frequently/consistently and that suggests mine may be too far gone. Am I reading that right?
I do know I don't have a lift and am not up to wiggling around under a 911 on my back
I'll ask my Indy about it though. Thanks.
It sounds like that is a fix in the early stages when the pop out is a "sometimes" thing, but my impression of the descriptions where this solved the issue is that mine is happening more frequently/consistently and that suggests mine may be too far gone. Am I reading that right?
I do know I don't have a lift and am not up to wiggling around under a 911 on my back
I'll ask my Indy about it though. Thanks.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,035
Likes: 269
From: Bentonville, AR
This is what I'd recommend. If replacing the indent and changing the fluid doesn't help at least one knows. And with the cost of repairing the tranny up where it is the additional cost of the indent fix and fluid is pretty much inconsequential.
If the indent and fluid don't help the tranny will have to be removed and torn down. Only then can one for sure know what's wrong. A bent fork is a possibility, but so is a worn one. Or it could be something else. And if the gear has been popping out of engagement the gear dog teeth are likely partially worn/rounded off and whatever else is found wrong this will probably have to be addressed as well.
If the indent and fluid don't help the tranny will have to be removed and torn down. Only then can one for sure know what's wrong. A bent fork is a possibility, but so is a worn one. Or it could be something else. And if the gear has been popping out of engagement the gear dog teeth are likely partially worn/rounded off and whatever else is found wrong this will probably have to be addressed as well.
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Race Director
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,035
Likes: 269
From: Bentonville, AR
Anyhow to get to the main point, the techs told me a rebuild was around half the cost of a replacement transmission which was priced at over $11K, so this put the cost of a rebuild at around $5500. This was the upper limit too, based on the fact in my car's case the transmission wasn't manifesting any untoward behavior. Had I had the car flat-bedded to the dealer with the tranny a smoking pile of metal the estimate I'm sure would have been higher.
Based on this "estimate" I'd say the quote you received is pretty competitive, in the ballpark I guess.
However, there is the unknown of what the tech will find once he has the transmission opened up. With just the popping out of gear symptom I don't expect -- no promises though -- he'll find a mess so I do not expect the cost of the rebuild to skyrocket.
Also, listen to the tech about what he has to say about what to do/replace while "there". Obviously worn or bad parts will be replaced, but what about all seals? Bearings? Other hardware, like synchros, shifter forks, etc?
One doesn't want to go crazy and throw away money but OTOH this is the time one wants to really ask what do "while there"? And be able to rely/trust 100% a tech who answers.
Advanced
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 87
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From: Minneapolis, MN
Most people would say GBox in Colorado is your best bet on a transmission rebuild. When I looked for mine, it was roughly $4,000 provided your transmission could be used as a core (they have a transmission swap program), also providing you do not care if you have the original transmission back in your car. Then you have labor and all the other 'I should do that while the transmission is removed stuff like; clutch, flywheel resurface, IMS, RMS, AOS, starter, etc' . You'll be in it to win it with 8K+ repair bill, roughly 50% of the value of your car. I found a used transmission (newer style) that I got for dirt cheap and it is flawless. I took a gamble and it paid off, but my transmission was toast so it wasn't acceptable for a core and would I would have lost the $1500 core charge making my transmission replacement cost of $5,800 plus labor (from GBox). There are are firms out there that will rebuild your Getrag unit. I would stick with the fluid change and detent and see where that gets you for now if you don't have to address all the other items I mentioned earlier. I may get flamed for this, but I found my transmission on eBay of all places from a Porsche dismantler with a warranty. Good luck
Thread Starter
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,913
Likes: 25
Thanks again for the continued input.
At 69k the clutch should be about half done since it was replaced at 30k when it got its last RMS and it was half done at that time. I've also said I'd ignore the IMSB until we were in for something else. Both of those are in the 4k ballpark estimate and I'm well familiar with things going up once you get into something.
At 69k the clutch should be about half done since it was replaced at 30k when it got its last RMS and it was half done at that time. I've also said I'd ignore the IMSB until we were in for something else. Both of those are in the 4k ballpark estimate and I'm well familiar with things going up once you get into something.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,035
Likes: 269
From: Bentonville, AR
Most people would say GBox in Colorado is your best bet on a transmission rebuild. When I looked for mine, it was roughly $4,000 provided your transmission could be used as a core (they have a transmission swap program), also providing you do not care if you have the original transmission back in your car. Then you have labor and all the other 'I should do that while the transmission is removed stuff like; clutch, flywheel resurface, IMS, RMS, AOS, starter, etc' . You'll be in it to win it with 8K+ repair bill, roughly 50% of the value of your car. I found a used transmission (newer style) that I got for dirt cheap and it is flawless. I took a gamble and it paid off, but my transmission was toast so it wasn't acceptable for a core and would I would have lost the $1500 core charge making my transmission replacement cost of $5,800 plus labor (from GBox). There are are firms out there that will rebuild your Getrag unit. I would stick with the fluid change and detent and see where that gets you for now if you don't have to address all the other items I mentioned earlier. I may get flamed for this, but I found my transmission on eBay of all places from a Porsche dismantler with a warranty. Good luck
If I'm having a transmission (or anything really) rebuilt I want my transmission rebuilt and what parts are not reusable replaced, and what parts are reusable reused.
IOWs, I want to keep the transmission as unchanged as as it can be and yet still have whatever parts that need to be replaced replaced.
The problem with a swap is one might turn in a tranny that has just a relatively minor problem and get a tranny in return that was thrashed to an inch of its life.
Or built with parts from one or more trannies that were thrashed within an inch of their lives.
A transmission comes in, and is disassembled. Obviously worn/damaged parts are discarded. Other parts that are deemed reusable are binned.
Then at some point a case is retrieved from stock and is assembled. Parts are retrieved from the bins. There is a mix of new parts, and used parts, which is of course what would be the case with a usual rebuild. But an important difference is the used parts are not installed in the exact same situation as they were in. They are installed in a different case, paired with parts that were probably paired with different parts in another transmission.
Thus the used parts are not paired with the parts with which they became used but different used parts. The worn parts now must work together and well, break in, and this brings with the it the risk of increased/accelerated wear with if not outright failure a less than acceptable level of performance compared to if the transmission was been rebuilt with a combination new parts with all its reusable parts be used where they were before.
Advanced
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
From: Minneapolis, MN
^^ that hurt my head to read.
Gears are gears, they come from a bin at the Getrag factory. The people who properly R&R a transmission generally won't dismantle a transmission into 'bins' to intermix with other 'parts' from other 'projects'. They will generally strip down the transmission and replace all worn parts and all bushings and bearings to spec. In the example at GBox, they will also provide updated parts in known heavy wear areas with improved designs. They do provide a service to R&R your own transmission, but the wait time when I looked at this was long and didn't make sense for ME. Since Porsche already replaced my engine with a crate engine prior to my ownership, the 'numbers matching' mindset had very little value to me. I went from a G96/30 to a G96/31 gear box which in itself, had a number of internal upgrades from the factory.
If you are worried about replacing parts on your car with 'different' parts that didn't come with the car originally, how do you ever expect your car to survive when you are forced to replace worn components? Parts manufactures change, components change, metallurgy could vary from one part to the next.. it sounds like in your world everything is a ticking time bomb. I prefer to enjoy the moment and if something fails, I replace it. After all, these aren't unicorns we are all driving.
Gears are gears, they come from a bin at the Getrag factory. The people who properly R&R a transmission generally won't dismantle a transmission into 'bins' to intermix with other 'parts' from other 'projects'. They will generally strip down the transmission and replace all worn parts and all bushings and bearings to spec. In the example at GBox, they will also provide updated parts in known heavy wear areas with improved designs. They do provide a service to R&R your own transmission, but the wait time when I looked at this was long and didn't make sense for ME. Since Porsche already replaced my engine with a crate engine prior to my ownership, the 'numbers matching' mindset had very little value to me. I went from a G96/30 to a G96/31 gear box which in itself, had a number of internal upgrades from the factory.
If you are worried about replacing parts on your car with 'different' parts that didn't come with the car originally, how do you ever expect your car to survive when you are forced to replace worn components? Parts manufactures change, components change, metallurgy could vary from one part to the next.. it sounds like in your world everything is a ticking time bomb. I prefer to enjoy the moment and if something fails, I replace it. After all, these aren't unicorns we are all driving.
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,337
Likes: 28
From: Los Angeles
Second gear detent price
The price for the detent is significantly lower if you buy from Erik on Ebay.NAYYY
He also refurbs/rebuilds gearboxes.
Erik Johnson
The Race Line
(970) 344-7761
He also refurbs/rebuilds gearboxes.
Erik Johnson
The Race Line
(970) 344-7761
Last edited by Schnell Gelb; Feb 5, 2015 at 05:04 PM.
Intermediate
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
I can answer some of the questions on this issue, as I have quite a bit of experience with it now. The reason that the 996 gearbox, as well as a couple of others, have a issue with the gear "popping out" is due in part to a lack of proper engagement of the operating sleeve to the dog ring, or engagement teeth on the gear face. This is what the detent has been modified to address. However if the damage internal is too extreme, this will not correct the current issues internally.
As a synchronizer wears, it allows the gear to still continue to spin a slight amount while it is being engaged. This slight movement forces the operating sleeve to zip the tips of the engagement teeth in the process of engaging the gear. Over time this results in chipping and rounding off of the teeth, and soon you have a "pop out" out issue. The only way to resolve things once the damage is advanced enough, is to replace the gear, operating sleeve, and synchronizer. There are usually internal bearings that also need replacement, due to wear.
The 996 gearbox utilizes interference style gears and shafts, rather than splines, which makes these somewhat difficult to rebuild. A 80-100 ton press is required to remove the gears from the shafts to access the damaged parts. It is usually about a 8-10 hour rebuild, but can be quicker or longer, depending on the damage, and experience of the builder.
I would be happy to answer any other questions you might have. You can send me a email if you would like or simply give me a call. There are some VERY good options out there now for resolving this issue, and I would be happy to help.
Best Regards,
Erik Johnson
As a synchronizer wears, it allows the gear to still continue to spin a slight amount while it is being engaged. This slight movement forces the operating sleeve to zip the tips of the engagement teeth in the process of engaging the gear. Over time this results in chipping and rounding off of the teeth, and soon you have a "pop out" out issue. The only way to resolve things once the damage is advanced enough, is to replace the gear, operating sleeve, and synchronizer. There are usually internal bearings that also need replacement, due to wear.
The 996 gearbox utilizes interference style gears and shafts, rather than splines, which makes these somewhat difficult to rebuild. A 80-100 ton press is required to remove the gears from the shafts to access the damaged parts. It is usually about a 8-10 hour rebuild, but can be quicker or longer, depending on the damage, and experience of the builder.
I would be happy to answer any other questions you might have. You can send me a email if you would like or simply give me a call. There are some VERY good options out there now for resolving this issue, and I would be happy to help.
Best Regards,
Erik Johnson