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Interesting discussion on the 997 forum about issues with the PDK systems and the difficulties with the electronics. That is a rather short digest of the topic but it addresses the issues of complex sophisticated technology vs the simple elegance of older technology.
The role of engine management systems in producing power and reducing emissions, the role of computers and motors in turning a sequential gearbox into a robotic system that can shift gears in miliseconds but also put you on a flatbed home, stabilizing systems to try and keep a car on the road when the driver can't...and all these "advances" add weight and generate heat and can be nightmares to diagnos failure in.
Interested in hearing thoughts on our modern cars and the point of diminishing returns.
The more complexity introduced into any system, the more likely there will be a failure somewhere.
Its the cost of progress, but I'll still take simplicity given the chance. More technology does not mean something is necessarily better
Sure they are very reliable compared to the old vehicles but once things start to go bad it costs more to diagnose and replace those electronic components than it does to work on and fix mechanical equivalents. Much easier to just crush it and start with something new.
Most Indy mechanics have little to no experience with PDK or other sequential manual gearboxes, especially the highly complex ones. But they can change 2 - 3 clutches a day on a good old manual tranny. The owner of which would you rather be?
Another poaching from the 997 forum is about the future engines of 911s. And this relates to the PDK complexity...the most disturbing point the article makes is this..."You can't afford to keep an engine for 10 years any more."
It may well be that from the 996 forward we are all driving disposable cars. Too expensive to repair or rebuild? Too obsolete to license for the road? We will no longer have the choice of ownership... all cars will be leased from the manufacturer and they will take them back and issue us a new one based on when the governments tell them too. And so the death of another form of private property.
Below the text from the 997 forum...
Porsche 911 range goes turbo
The next 911 range update will bring turbos for sub-GT3 models. Paul Horrell reports on the end of an era
The turbocharger continues its march across some of our most cherished engines. The next batch of Porsche 911s will get blowers for the mainstream models, Porsche's engineering chief Wolfgang Hatz told us at the Detroit show.
"You have to respect legal requirements [for lower CO2], so yes we're thinking turbos for standard 911s. You can't afford to keep an engine for 10 years any more."
He had earlier explained that the new 911 GT3 RS, which will be launched in March at the Geneva show, features an all-new very powerful naturally aspirated engine. A version of that engine, with turbos but less power, strangely, will be what's in the facelifted 911s in 2016.
"Emissions are important for us," said Hatz, "And we will reduce faster than the industry. Every new model will have lower CO2 than before. There aren't so many technologies to do it. If you look at euro per g/km then it's turbo. Then at the end of the decade electrification has to be the next huge step." Does that mean a hybrid for the all-new 911? "Yes." With expertise from the 918 and 919 racer, Porsche is in a good position.
He also acknowledged that Porsche is developing a four-cylinder turbo for the Cayman and Boxster ranges from 2016. Is it a flat four? "It's not an in-line four or a V4." Will it go into the 911? "Never. That's always a flat six." Phew.
Again in pursuit of better economy and performance, Hatz said Porsche is working on an all-new V8 for the next generation of Cayenne and Panamera. These cars also have to get lighter. He said the objective for the next Cayenne V6 is under two tonnes, even though it will add equipment. At the moment it's nearly 2100kg.
But you don't want to know about base-model SUVs, you want to know about hot semi-racers.
He confirmed there is a Cayman GT4 coming this year. He said it's developed by the motorsport department who do the GT versions of the 911. It will have about 400bhp, and be usefully lighter than a standard car. It's more hardcore than the old Cayman R, he said, and is "for customers who want an entry race car."
And the 911 GT3 RS will be at the Geneva show. Hatz said the existing GT3 surprised people by how civilised it is. He says the GT3 RS is a bigger jump from the GT3 than there was in the 997-generation GT3 to GT3 RS. So we're looking at a pretty rabid car.
But if that's not enough, what about people who want more: a GT2 with turbos? "We have so many 911 variants," - this was minutes after they'd launched the Targa 4 GTS - "but customers do ask for a GT2, and we will decide."
Regardless of our feelings on the topic, the PDK is here to stay. The combination of fuel efficiency, reliability during the warranty period, and reducing manufacturing complexity by eliminating the manual option makes it attractive for manufacturers. There is also essentially NO demand for manuals in the US.
Before you argue with me on that last point - when I checked inventory @ San Diego Porsche six months ago (give or take), approx. 3% of their inventory was equipped with a standard transmission - out of 99 cars, 3 had manuals. The dealer stocks what people want to buy - and people clearly have no interest in driving a car with a manual transmission.
I also learned that if you moan about this fact in OT, you get flamed - evidently, very few people share my affinity for manual gearboxes.
I suppose it's probably better for the majority of people anyway - most drivers can barely manage competently driving from point A to point B using a steering wheel, a "go" pedal, and a "stop" pedal...adding a gear lever and a clutch pedal back in would certainly overwhelm the Kardashian generation.
Dealerships no longer fix stuff - they just replace stuff. When our Murano's CVT started slipping - almost certainly because of the drive belt - they replaced the entire transaxle.
Someday, once environmental laws catch up to the third world, it may once again be cheaper to repair something than it will be to ship a new part stateside and ship containerloads of slightly busted stuff back to China and India to be broken down and recycled. Until then, dealership technicians will be forbidden from cracking open and working on transmissions, engines, etc. - so our only options for getting these items repaired will be the indies.
I am so glad I grew up when I did and was able to experience classic 60's hot rods, them moved on to brand new cars from the 90's and now pretty much only buy stuff that is 10 years old, except for the SUV - because who cares, it's an SUV. In 10 years I will be looking for cars that are 20 years old or maybe at that point I will just go back to 60's and 70's cars if that becomes too problematic. Assuming "they" still let us....
Maybe it is time for auto enthusiasts to look at Cuba as our role model. A 1965 Alfa Romeo GTV starts looking very efficient and cost effective. 1600cc all aluminium dual OHC, dual 40mm Webers, 5 spd, 2+2, disc brakes, designed to be serviced in your driveway, great fun to drive...or an outlaw 356...or a Mk 1 GTI. And if you're listening Jesus, can you bring back payphones?
The same FUD factor applied to electronic ignition replacing points, fuel injection replacing carbs, e-throttle's replacing cables, ABS replacing conventional brakes, smart busses replacing individual wires, electrically assisted power steering replacing hydraulic, and the issues apply to every car currently manufactured from the cheapest Honda to a new 918.
What exactly is the point of the discussion? To question if technology improvements can often cause hiccups and make things much harder to self repair? Seems like that is a given.
A 1960's MG will have none of the above, I hear they are really reliable...
01-16-2015, 02:03 AM
PDK: is more less?
