I bought a stick Porsche because I find clutching and rowing a stick an exhiliarating part of the Porsche experience, along with the noise and stiff ride of a Porsche. If I grow tired of a manual, I will also be tired of those other things. So I'll get an automatic Mercedes again. Nothing against PDK, I just don't want a Porsche without a stick.

 

The pre-owned market seems much more fond of manuals than new car buyers. Low-end new car buyers are kids who don't know how to drive a manual; I suspect many new Porsches go to old guys who don't wanna deal with it and/or their cardiologists won't allow it, as well as their trophy wives who would otherwise be part of the first category.

 

Yep- Id like to see a new , light , low cost , model - that is cheap to repair - but reliable. I think it's called a mazda Miata. With some more power and a porsche badge/styling - I'm sure there would be a big market - but perhpas not as profitable as cayennes, panamerra etc.

If I look at all the parts failing on my 12 yo 996 - it's microswicthes, water pumps, alternator, electric windows. Much of this is quite easy to repair , if not cheap. I'd probably also stay away from a 10 yo pdk for exactly this reason ....

 

The point is that cumulatively the new technology has reached a point of diminishing returns for the enthusiast/user/buyer. Of course it makes it cheaper for the manufacturer (and politically opportune for the government) but the greater complexity causes greater fragility...and that ain't good for the buyer.

However if a car isn't worth (or too expensive) repairing it probably isn't worth buying. Which brings us to a world in which we never own a car, we just lease it. The car becomes a public utility engineered to create a contiuous cycle of debt.

And this leads to modern day socio-economic trends and theories based on debt and inflation and social engineering. Cradle to the gave social planning will now include what you are allowed to drive as you travel from the cradle to the grave...decided by a partnership between government and regulated industry. You can see it in the comments of the Porsche executive as he talks about where Porsche engineering and design are going.

Will the successor to the 991 be the first "virtual Porsche?"

As for the 1960 MG...they were more reliable because they were more repairable. In those days all you needed was a screwdriver...now you need a flatbed.

 

The comment about the MG was sarcasm... The point is that even though you could try to repair them with nothing more than a screwdriver, vice-grips, and a hammer, they were completely unreliable POS's. As were most 60's 'pre-technology' cars.

One could also argue that modern rust preventative measures alone have more than offset mechanical complexity in terms of keeping a car running and driving for a long time.

 

Not sure how many times a car becomes POS because the owner(s) let it decay rather than taking car of it. In addition to the Porsche 356 cars, I think the 1957-1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Veloce represents asolute excellence in design. Again, if you took care of it, it would take care of you.

I will make a concession to the new technology...I like the motor oils.

 

So just to make sure I'm understanding your position, you are suggesting that a 1960 Alfa is overall more reliable car and capable of lasting for more miles and years of service than, say a 2015 Cayman with PDK, ABS, ECUs, SRS, OBDII, PASM, PSM, TPMS, Electronic Power Steering, Throttle-by-wire, VarioCam, Dynamic transmission mounts, Electronic torque vectoring, etc?

I say that is hogwash... Not even close. Yes, every one of those advanced Cayman systems has failure modes, many require specialized equipment to diagnose and repair, and can mean expensive parts. But the overall MTBF of the entire car as a package is a fraction of what was typical in the 60's...

And to reiterate again, it really doesn't matter if you can replace the ball joints for the fifth time, install your third set of tranny syncro' and twelfth set of spark plugs yourself on an alfa if the frame and body has rotted out around it.

Now if you are a survivalist looking for a post-apocolypse or post-emp vehicle that you can keep running yourself to outrun the bands of marauders (of course converted to wood alcohol for fuel since there will be little or no oil refined) I'd say a sixties vehicle would be perfect. Though I'd probably take a Ford pickup or maybe an International Scout over an Alfa or 356.

 

John, if you enjoy spending your weekends tinkering with a constantly breaking car- you are a minority. 95% of people don't know how to add oil to their car, so ease of repair is not a priority.

Reliable car is a car that starts every day, never strands you, and can serve for years with just basic maintenance and almost never requires non-scheduled repair. 1960s Alfa's and MG's are not reliable cars, in reality they are a post card for a piece-of-**** junk; hence the reason why MG and Afra are still so successful in American market and their market share is still so high.

You want a reliable car that will last you 1,000,000.00 miles with basic maintenance- you buy a Honda or Toyota product. Period. They are not "pretty", but from engineering stand point they are phenomenal compared to the POS British and Italian cars. Pretty styling of the European vehicles does not equal superior engineering.

Here, find me a similar site for MG/Jaguar/Alfa/Fiat cars.

 

More complexity and higher technology does not necessarily mean that there is "more to go wrong".

Compare fuel injection to carburation. Fuel injection requires computerized controls, usually more parts and pieces, more precise engineering, etc.
Carburetors are relatively simple devices, and in the 60s and 70s, the same model carburetor could be used on several different engines over different brands of car.
But, I can tell you I have spent many more hours troubleshooting carburation problems, rebuilding carburetors, trying to balance carburetors, etc. than I have ever spent on dealing with fuel injection problems.
Fuel injection meters fuel more precisely causing the fuel to burn more efficiently, depositing less unburned fuel into the engine, lengthening the life of motor oil and the engine in general.

These same principles and benefits apply to many of the mechanical and electrical systems in automobiles.

In fact, modern electronics and greater technology is really the salvation of the automobile. If cars were as inefficient, as prone to accidents, and as short lived as they were in the 50s, 60s, and especially 70s, they would be even more politically incorrect than they are deemed now (by the greenies).

Sure, I miss the ability to look at a simple engine compartment, my old 1969 Charger for example, and being able to tell immediately what is causing the engine to miss, overheat, etc. Simplicity has some benefits, but by and large they don't outweigh the vast benefit of good applied technology.

 

Actually my 77 Alfa Sedan was amazingly reliable. I tracked it almost every other month, drove it to work every day, all it required was maintaining it by the book. It did have fuel injection...a mechanical unit that was easy to tune and adjust. I'm not the type who likes to work on cars and so I appreciated the Alfa's balance and performance built in at the factory.

The early 60 Giuliettas Veloces were even simpler and were designed for the Europeon open road races like the Mille Miglia and Targa Florio and the German long distance track events.

I also had good experiences with a couple of mid 70s Honda Civics and a 1985 RX7 SE.

Now we are into the electric car era. In a study of carbon footprints I was amazed to see how cars like the Tesla and Volt make 80% of the environmental impact during their manufacturing. And it is significantly larger than the manufacturing footprint made by a traditional gasoline engine car. On the road of course the electric car uses less energy...and in only ten years it makes up for all the carbon it used in its manufacturing.

In essence, in ten years time it is almost a draw. My gut tells me that if we used modern manufacturing technology to make a retro-simple car, we would have the best of both worlds.

 

Off-topic but...

I would take it that your 77 Alfa used SPICA? If so, it's okay to concede that it was an utter failure, and there only exists a small niche group of people who deny its failure and convince the world at all costs that it was the best system ever designed. The rest of the world moved on to electronic fuel injection leaving Wes Ingram the only specialist to this unique fuel injection system? Lots of respect for the man, but only one specialist? No thanks.

I appreciate that Alfa Romeos are beautiful cars, but sadly, the folks behind their design and manufacturing process did not think long term as they never lived to see the future, unlike Porsche. And to say the folks in Cuba are a good example, they are simply victims of circumstance of their political policies and what have you.

Having owned a 78 Alfa Romeo Spider, it was fun while it lasted, but it tore me apart every time something went wrong with it and it was just a money pit that brought no value or satisfaction aside from sitting on ones driveway. It wasn't fun tinkering with it - it was a bloody chore, and a God forsaken one at that. I even went as far as leaving the keys in the car hoping it would get stolen but sadly, even the thieves were smart enough to leave me a note on the windshield that said "F*** You!"

I can't tell if this is simply trolling or genuine discussion. Regardless, I fell for the trap so call me a sucker.

 

I love my 996 but can't wait to one day get a more technology advanced 991 (or later) with PDK. .....as well as other electronic stuff.

 

[QUOTE=johnireland;11964604]Actually my 77 Alfa Sedan was amazingly reliable. I tracked it almost every other month, drove it to work every day, all it required was maintaining it by the book. It did have fuel injection...a mechanical unit that was easy to tune and adjust. I'm not the type who likes to work on cars and so I appreciated the Alfa's balance and performance built in at the factory.

The early 60 Giuliettas Veloces were even simpler and were designed for the Europeon open road races like the Mille Miglia and Targa Florio and the German long distance track events.
[/QUOTE

When assessing the reliability of an Alfa you have to consider rust as a failure mechanism.

I had a '69 Fiat Sport Coupe that was amazingly reliable, but only after I spent umpteen of my teenage free hours repairing the body.

 

not me. That is the last thing I would want to own with a bunch of miles and age on it, which typically is the only way I can afford cars like these.

 

Really? You don't think in ten or twelve years they'll be selling for $16,000 to $18,000? I'm 99% joking but you can find 997's now for $35,000. Granted they'll have a few miles but properly maintained...... We'll see.