Ahsai

Chris, could you also kindly tell us how many IMSB failures you've seen in your 20+ yrs wrenching on Porsche and is the alleged 5-10% failure rate even close to reality in your experience?

ditto

Mine is ok. I am feeling more and more like a guinea pig.

Flat6 Innovations

I learned a few things back in 2007, the biggest of those was to patent all my ideas, both good and bad.

To be clear, the product being described here is NOT an "IMS Solution" which is my invention, and the name is trademarked. The IMS Solution does not share anything in common with the product described here.

There's a reason why we developed the Spin On Filter Adaptor and why its used as the feed point for the IMS Solution.

Bruce In Philly

Pedro says he sold "thousands". I am pretty addicted to these boards and this is the first failure/issue I've seen.

Chain tensioners etc are known failure modes of these engines so there may be more at play here. I am not defending Pedro's product, but there may be more to the story before you condemn his stuff. My indy, while he has no experience with this product, has seen other's bearings fail at least once. Stuff breaking happens.... what makes something good or bad is the failure rate.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

Gonzo911

Fascinating that none of those other shops looked at the engine and thought, "WTF is that thing?"

500

The DOF will reduce the head oil pressure on that side, but the key question is, in a healthy engine, would it cause enough of a reduction to create any operational issue?

I don’t know the answer, but I think the manufacturer’s position is that it does not. I seem to recall some quantification of the oil pressure drop, but I can’t remember where I read that, or who posted it. It would seem logical that these same symptoms are not generally observed in most DOF installations, as it would have come to light already.

I agree with Macster that this may be an indicator of other problems that may have already impacted oil pressure, to the point where the addition of the DOF feed “pushed things over the edge”. Certainly it seems the OP’s diagnostic job has only just begun. The recommendation to directly measure oil pressure before and after DOF installations is sensible.

Personally I had been leaning toward the DOF, but ended up going with the “dual row pro” ceramic from LN to replace my absolutely pristine original bearing two months ago. It will be interesting to follow this. It is way too early to write off the DOF.

Imo000

Oil feed is the same location as the oil pressure sending found on Bank 2 but, is plugged on Bank1?

ppbon

I only know of one case where the customer forgot to tell the shop that his last oil change had been over 20,000 miles before.
The DOF was installed and upon startup there was valvetrain and ticking noise as the OP describes.
The shop decided to open the oil pan and here's what they found:

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j3...ps0b4fb0fa.jpg

Then they removed the oil filter and this was in there:

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j3...ps8234bbcb.jpg

This car's engine was throughly flushed and cleaned with Wurth Engine Flush and Claeaner.
New oil filter and fresh oil at the correct level went in and all noises went away.

It's very easy to blame the DOF (or any other new part) when in fact, the culprit was the negligence of the owner (in the above case).
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro

KrazyK

An IMSB thread. So glad I checked the forum this morning.

This type of stupidity cant be cured.


Im curious what the suspect engines "real" oil pressure was before the DOF install, after the DOF install, after the line disconnect/plug.

Depending on how the oil feed line was tapped in and oil line discharge nozzle size, couldn't the engine (especially with marginal pressure to begin with) see the DOF as a massive internal oil passage leak?

Even the Pedro promo videos showing splash lubrication are highly suspect. The videos actually prove splash oil is fine for an open seal bearing.

The important lesson from all the DOF's and other high priced gimmicks is to just replace the bearing with a high quality open sealed one when you change the clutch and don't worry about it.

On the other hand, all the work and research done by Jake and Pedro is much appreciated.

500

"open sealed"? I assume you mean the open ceramic? FVD is marketing an upgraded sealed bearing too...

Although I am not a DOF customer, and am not convinced one way or the other at this stage, I think dismissing it as a gimmick misses the point that the DOF can be a relatively cost effective way to deal with M97 engines where the bearing replacement is not possible without a teardown.

Having said that, there is a lot I don't know, such as the real failure rate of any of these, especially the larger M97 bearing etc. But I don't think anyone on here can really put that to bed anyway.

alpine003

Is this Pedro from "Pedro's Garage"? If so, can you give us a rough ballpark of how many have been sold and when the first one was sold?

I too think there is something more going on here than just the product.

alpine003

No he said "open seal" meaning no matter what bearing you decide to use, you open the seal instead of leaving it closed on both sides if the bearing came with both seals in place.

Ben Z

The DOF people say the issue that kills the imsb is lubrication, and that can't be denied, but it is a perversion of the facts. How lubrication affects the imsb is when the seals allow just enough oil inside to mix dirt and debris with the remaining grease, which then wears and overheats the bearing. If the seals would remain sealed, or become completely unsealed, the bearing won't fail prematurely. The proof of this is the 92% that survive without any intervention. Splash lubrication is enough, especially with a ceramic bearing. The only time oil feed would be of benefit is with a plain bearing like Jake's Solution which doesn't get splash lubed.

KrazyK

Aplys correct and knows what I meant. Maybe better to say open previously sealed? JMHO but I think your better to install the bearing after removing the seals from both sides.

I also agree with what Ben Z posted.

Flat6 Innovations

I've seen 5 M97 IMSBs fail in the past 6 years from street cars. Thats all.

The diameter of the M97 bearing moves the failure point from the street to the track, and if a car isn;'t a track car, the M97 bearing has proven very effective. In my directives concerning the M97 equipped street engines I recommend just leaving them as factory and nothing needs to be done at all.

I have two different M97 products to release, but we haven't, because there's no need. Thats what 6 years of exposure at our level has proven.

The M97 IMSB has too high of a surface speed when tracked, which creates an issue that nothing will ever solve, except omission of the component with technology that doesn't include ball or roller bearings.