uribeman

Guys,
I dont have a Porsche, but seriously considering one. For the price range, I can only consider a 996.1. However, the prices on these seem to be all over. I have seen them anywhere from $30k to $13.5 at the corner dealer.
1. Ive come to the conclusion that fair price is between $15-$19k? By reading the forums Ive seen people getting one w the aero kit for $20k or less, so in part thats my basis. Is this accurate? I know most people will answer that it depends on mileage. Service, mods, etc. but prices cant be all that different for cars at the same level..in other words, apples to apples.
2. I would do a PPI but would like to know what is included on a typical one. Average prices for these are $300-$400 and wouldnt want to pay one just for someone to check the blinkers and if the ac turns on...in particular, can they tell you the status of the IMS that is the big thing with these cars? Im guessing an oil change to check for metal particles?
3. Lets assume the car is good but its time to change the IMS for precaution. Ive read that you should say IMS/RMS/AOS and maybe clutch in one sentence when repalcing the IMS? If so, can someone tell me ballpark how much indy shops charge to do this? Just an idea would be ok...im guessing $500 labor +parts?
4. Same question for the AOS sensor and the PPI, which seems to be the other big thing w a 996.
4. Also, how can you tell if a clutch needs replacing soon?

Finally, Im looking at this car in particular. Thought id share if someone has any thoughts/suggestions
http://baltimore.craigslist.org/cto/4596527468.html

Im not too excited because there is no service history, but I havent killed the thought yet.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks

Kalashnikov

1. $13-20k is the range for running 996.1 cars. Options, colors, mileage, and maintenance are the main determinants of the price.
2. PPI depth depends on the shop doing it. Shop around in your area and ask for their inspection check list. Most shops do full visual inspection of all areas + durametric scan.
3. Full IMS/AOS/RMS job will likely run between $3-5k.
4. AOS is not a sensor, it is the air/oil separator device. If if is bad, the CEL will most likely be thrown and car may puff white smoke. PPI should be able to catch it.
5. Clutch needs replacing soon when it starts slipping, when effort becomes excessive etc.

The car you posted is decent. Get a PPI done and move from there.

Dennis C

1. You can probably find a car in that range, but it's hard to get an appls to apples comparison, as you say. There were many options and cars will differ considerably.
2. Get your PPI done at a Porsche mechanic who provides this service. I personally believe in using service records and a PPI to determine condition, repairs, etc. Most PPIs won't include an oil change to look for metal particles.
3. My independent mechanic charged me $3,290.51 for a new clutch and new LN Engineering IMS bearing.
4. You don't need to change the AOS unless it fails.
4. It's hard to tell on the clutch. Mine didn't exhibit any symptoms until it was within 100 miles of failure.

Cuda911

I agree with above, but the AOS is a relatively cheap part. Replace it if doing IMSB/RMS, yada, yada, yada.

OP: Your info sounds pretty accurate. Good job on your research! Regarding the PPI... find someone with a decent reputation, since what a PPI consists of is highly subjective.

pfbz

There are plenty of super nice 996's at high prices.
There are plenty of crappy 996's at low prices.

The trick is to find a great 996 at a great price... Harder than you might think from browsing these forums.

Not much info on the craigslist car you linked to... Looks decent from the pictures. Interior looks a bit worn, but if that is the only issue for $17K, might be worth taking a closer look at.

FRUNKenstein

Concur with everything said above. On the IMSB, based on the year and mileage of that car, I would wait until it needs a new clutch to do it and that other work. The available info on IMSB failure rates would peg that car at being a very low risk. Assuming you get that car for $15,000 to $16,000, worst case scenario is that it turns into a $5,000 roller ($10,000 risk). Since it is a 2 owner car, you should be able to find out if the clutch has ever been done. If recently done, I think I'd take that $10k risk and not spend $3,000+ trying to avoid an IMSB failure that will very, very likely never happen. On the other hand, if the clutch has never been done, then would not be wasted money to pre-emptively have the clutch done now so that you can do the IMSB and the other stuff for basically the cost of the parts. Even if you read about some people having clutches that last over 100k miles, replacing it preemptively at 80k isn't a waste of money.
As for the car, black on black is a nice combination.
I think it is priced reasonably. Love the wheels.
At that price point, you can probably own it for 3 or 4 years and sell it for what you paid for it.
Plus, the guy lives on a highway cloverleaf, so great place for a test drive!

jamren

I would definitely try to buy a car where you have access to the service history information. I think you should be able to find a car for sale that already has the IMSB updated. I paid $17,700 for my '99 with 77k miles and it already had the bearing updated. Car has been trouble free in a year and a half of ownership.

uribeman

Hey guys thanks for all the helpful feedback. I called a few local shops and heard the following:
1. $180 for a PPI that includes only visual and a test drive. When I asked about checking the IMS issue just in case, they said the closest they could do was change the oil and check for particles. But at a price of $220! In addition, I was told that a lack of particles doesn't necessarily mean the IMS is not bad... Not much help when caveated that way!
2. Another shop said $100 for visual only and optional test drive. Compression and leak test for another $200.

So the PPI is supposed to bring peace of mind but I'm not sure a visual can lead to this.. Am I overthinking this too much?

FRUNKenstein

Yes. It is a $15,000 car. There are no guarantees even if you spend $500 on a PPI. But spending $100 or $200 to have a professional Porsche mechanic crawl around the car and test drive it is money well spent. In the end, if the thought of buying a 14 year old car that might need an engine rebuild someday soon freaks you out, then a 996 (or any older high performance automobile for that matter) is probably not for you. Buy something that is still under warranty and sell it when the warranty is up. Of course you'll lose a lot in depreciation that way, so you'll be spending the money for that potential engine rebuild, just in a different way. As for me, I've had 3 older Porsches and none ever required more than normal maintenance. Knock on wood, but no major repairs in over 55,000 miles of Porsche ownership between the 3 cars.
My suggestion: that car you are looking at looks like a great first Porsche. Buy it, drive it like a Porsche was meant to be driven and don't look back. It's a helluva ride and I predict you consider that $15k some of the best money you ever spent.

5CHN3LL

A visual-only PPI is akin to a doctor inspecting your prostate by having a conversation with you...sure, he can probably determine from the conversation that you're not in the advanced stages of cancer, but you'll know a lot more if he gets his hands dirty.

pfbz

I'm definitely in the minority, but I'll choose a car that has an exterior/interior in fantastic condition, everything functioning as inspected by me, all original, no accident history, without signs of any quick & dirty cosmetic rework WITHOUT a PPI in a second over a cosmetically so-so car with a clean PPI.

So much focus on PPI's... I've seen many PPI's done on cars by top shops, read dozens of PPI reports, and am almost always unimpressed. They check over everything I typically check myself and rarely go into model-specific known issues. I don't need a shop to tell me tire wear, brake wear, tiny RMS leak. I saw those already... Unlike air-cooled engines, a well running 996 rarely has issues that will show up on a compression test. PPI's I've seen from top shops have NEVER pulled an oil pan or cut open a filter. They might spot a panel that's been repainted that you didn't notice, but on 996's if the damage is light enough that it never showed on carfax and the repair is good enough that I can't spot it, I don't really care. Not a collector car. They might check for overrev's, something I can't do without additional diag tools, but again, that really isn't what's going to get you on a 'bad' 996...

Now I know a bunch of you will say 'you need a better shop to do a PPI', but picking the shop that will do a great PPI is no trivial task either.

If you don't already know a fair amount about 996's, or are not a semi-decent backyard mechanic, or simply don't want to spend the time as well as get down on the ground with a flashlight, a PPI definitely makes sense...

But again, give me the great looking, great driving, great configuration decade old Porsche with an original IMS bearing and no PPI in a second over a crappy looking, worn interior, bad color combo 996 with a fresh IMS bearing and a clean PPI...

uribeman

Excellent advice and pointers, thanks to all again. I agree in some part w what you say. I dont need a shop to charge me $200 what I can find out w a $5 tire thread meter. And thats what I pointed out at the beggining. Just trying to educate myself on PpIs and what to expect. I also agree with some other comments that $200 is chunk change for a Pcar savvy mechanic to take a close look and relay any major items that I myself couldnt catch. The small ones I dont care for. To me this will be a daily driver and not a garage queen, so I cant afford the luxury of rebuilding an engine and taking the time to read and DIY it. Im also blessed to have a bit of wiggle room($$$) to properly maintain the car, but I cant understand how a $10-15k loss would be trivial to some folks.

To me a good PPI would be to get a good read on any uncommon engine noise that I myself wouldnt know what it means, a good confirmation if the coolant reservoir and coolant condition looks ok, a $50 oil change that can confirm no particles floating around, no CEL and a good, honest list of items that need attention and a relative priority. If this comes from someone that maintains Porsches for a living then...success.

I used to have a 2001 Audi A4 and those 1.8T have as bad a rep for the intermix problems as the 996 IMS issue. I was one of the victims. So I may be carrying some of that bad karma into this new relationship Im trying to build w a 996 (starting to sound like a nasty jealous girlfriend on a rant). So I myself would rather ensure the engine is ok and upgrade the interior later.

Ill keep posting progress but keep the advice and good thoughts coming. Thanks again guys.

uribeman

Im on the same train of thought...im wondering if LN has thought of a solution to that!

Cuda911

In my opinion, a PPI for these cars is mainly to find out if there are any gross, obvious issues. Of course, no one is going to tear down the heads, borescope inspect, take out the tranny to access the IMSB, etc. But, they can look for signs of abuse, unusual wear, make sure all components function properly, etc. That's about all I'd expect for a few hundred dollars.

Seeeu911

Agreed. Let's not over complicate what actually happens in a PPI. I got a visual inspection, a diagram of the car with any external issues noted, a Durametric print out and a test drive, by a well respected Porsche expert and Indy at a Porsche only shop. A Porsche expert can very quickly give an expert PPI using VFR rules.