LN engineering single to dual row IMS
02-11-2017, 11:27 AM
#106
Rennlist Member
Amazing how twisted information can get on the world wide web...
02-11-2017, 01:01 PM
#107
Former Vendor
02-12-2017, 10:46 AM
#108
Drifting
Good Morning Jake,
You can put me in the column of people who are glad you are here and appreciate your input and knowledge. You all ready know I am looking at the solution, cost be damned - it's peace of mind for me.
You can put me in the column of people who are glad you are here and appreciate your input and knowledge. You all ready know I am looking at the solution, cost be damned - it's peace of mind for me.
02-12-2017, 01:26 PM
#109
Drifting
But please note there are are plenty of us in that column who have never bought any Raby products. We are just as grateful for the generous advice and knowledge given. If it is salted with some promotion of LN or RND products ,most of us are capable of coping with that ! Note he does not sell any products -none .
Jake has helped keep the M96 alive because he has developed and promoted solutions to problems that bedevil this engine. Who else has done as much for us? Certainly nobody in the peanut gallery who just throw some disparaging ad hominem remark and flee the scene.
Thank you Jake.
Jake has helped keep the M96 alive because he has developed and promoted solutions to problems that bedevil this engine. Who else has done as much for us? Certainly nobody in the peanut gallery who just throw some disparaging ad hominem remark and flee the scene.
Thank you Jake.
05-02-2017, 12:37 PM
#110
Rennlist Member
I'm in the process of installing a Single Row Pro in my 2001 986S with 40K miles and original single row bearing. Following the published process on this included with the LN Faultless and Pro Toolkits (both the printed manual and the additional post manual published items noted on the LN website here http://imsretrofit.com/single-row-pro-installation/). Followed all the pre-qualification tests, everything passed with flying colors. Got the old bearing out and it is perfect, the usual situation where the bearing is filled with motor oil (not grease) which is confirmed once the seal was removed.
One thing that is giving me pause is the bearing retention method using the wire lock. For those that have not been there or have not seen these parts, the factory bearing is retained with a very beefy internal circlip inside the end of the intermediate shaft. The IMS Single Row Pro provides for fitting a dual row of ***** in this location (insert your own joke here) but that means the bearing, while a lovely engineered item, has a wider shell. So the wire lock is used to retain the bearing in the bore of the shaft by fitting around the bearing shell in a groove located at the same location as the circlip groove in the shaft. The lock is installed using the very nicely made faultless tool that takes up the slack in the wire lock and forces it to stay tight against the bearing shell until inserted into the shaft where it "springs open" and fits into the factory circlip groove during the press fit install common to the IMS bearing replacement procedure. All that sounds great, but what I have found when doing a pre-install check is that the wire diameter on the lock is very small, and when it springs into the circlip groove it is below the surface of the groove all the way around. So, the lock does not appear to provide very much "locking" of the bearing. Now the bearing has a friction fit into the shaft, and the inner race of the bearing is retained by the IMS bearing cover on the outside of the shaft and the inner side is supported by the bearing insert that is bolted to the bearing cover.
There is an additional installation note (from the page linked above) that suggests using Loctite to assist in retaining the bearing:
One thing that is giving me pause is the bearing retention method using the wire lock. For those that have not been there or have not seen these parts, the factory bearing is retained with a very beefy internal circlip inside the end of the intermediate shaft. The IMS Single Row Pro provides for fitting a dual row of ***** in this location (insert your own joke here) but that means the bearing, while a lovely engineered item, has a wider shell. So the wire lock is used to retain the bearing in the bore of the shaft by fitting around the bearing shell in a groove located at the same location as the circlip groove in the shaft. The lock is installed using the very nicely made faultless tool that takes up the slack in the wire lock and forces it to stay tight against the bearing shell until inserted into the shaft where it "springs open" and fits into the factory circlip groove during the press fit install common to the IMS bearing replacement procedure. All that sounds great, but what I have found when doing a pre-install check is that the wire diameter on the lock is very small, and when it springs into the circlip groove it is below the surface of the groove all the way around. So, the lock does not appear to provide very much "locking" of the bearing. Now the bearing has a friction fit into the shaft, and the inner race of the bearing is retained by the IMS bearing cover on the outside of the shaft and the inner side is supported by the bearing insert that is bolted to the bearing cover.
There is an additional installation note (from the page linked above) that suggests using Loctite to assist in retaining the bearing:
2. Loctite (bearing mount) can be applied to the housing bore, but not directly to the o.d. of the bearing, as a secondary method of retention for the new bearing.
I am planning on performing this step. And I’m not suggesting that the bearing is going to fail because the wire lock does not seem effective, but I am looking for experiences from other installers – have you also noted that the wire lock does not extend into the shaft bearing bore once it is placed?
05-02-2017, 01:29 PM
#111
Former Vendor
The issue is you have a shaft with a deeper and wider snap ring groove machined into the housing bore. These are few and far between, and are the reason why the bearing mount is mentioned. These Single Row Pro units had been in development for over 18 months before we ran into the first case of this.
That said, the bearing is captive. It is retained with the wire lock, as well as the bearing flange. This is one big reason why LN kits all have a billet flange, is because the factory flange is not captive in regard to the bearing.
To test this one time I turned .003" off the OD of a bearing, and installed it with no wire lock. It was to the point of being loose in the housing bore when installed. After 4 hours on the dyno we remove the flange and not even that bearing had moved.
Now, that said, I hope that you didn't fully insert the bearing into the housing bore, and then remove it to test this. If so, you've done more damage than anything, as ceramic bearings should not be extracted by their inner race once they have been installed. Doing this will place small irregularities in the races from the ***** contacting them with high unit pressures.
That said, the bearing is captive. It is retained with the wire lock, as well as the bearing flange. This is one big reason why LN kits all have a billet flange, is because the factory flange is not captive in regard to the bearing.
To test this one time I turned .003" off the OD of a bearing, and installed it with no wire lock. It was to the point of being loose in the housing bore when installed. After 4 hours on the dyno we remove the flange and not even that bearing had moved.
Now, that said, I hope that you didn't fully insert the bearing into the housing bore, and then remove it to test this. If so, you've done more damage than anything, as ceramic bearings should not be extracted by their inner race once they have been installed. Doing this will place small irregularities in the races from the ***** contacting them with high unit pressures.
05-02-2017, 01:46 PM
#112
Rennlist Member
The issue is you have a shaft with a deeper and wider snap ring groove machined into the housing bore. These are few and far between, and are the reason why the bearing mount is mentioned. These Single Row Pro units had been in development for over 18 months before we ran into the first case of this.
That said, the bearing is captive. It is retained with the wire lock, as well as the bearing flange. This is one big reason why LN kits all have a billet flange, is because the factory flange is not captive in regard to the bearing.
To test this one time I turned .003" off the OD of a bearing, and installed it with no wire lock. It was to the point of being loose in the housing bore when installed. After 4 hours on the dyno we remove the flange and not even that bearing had moved.
Now, that said, I hope that you didn't fully insert the bearing into the housing bore, and then remove it to test this. If so, you've done more damage than anything, as ceramic bearings should not be extracted by their inner race once they have been installed. Doing this will place small irregularities in the races from the ***** contacting them with high unit pressures.
That said, the bearing is captive. It is retained with the wire lock, as well as the bearing flange. This is one big reason why LN kits all have a billet flange, is because the factory flange is not captive in regard to the bearing.
To test this one time I turned .003" off the OD of a bearing, and installed it with no wire lock. It was to the point of being loose in the housing bore when installed. After 4 hours on the dyno we remove the flange and not even that bearing had moved.
Now, that said, I hope that you didn't fully insert the bearing into the housing bore, and then remove it to test this. If so, you've done more damage than anything, as ceramic bearings should not be extracted by their inner race once they have been installed. Doing this will place small irregularities in the races from the ***** contacting them with high unit pressures.
No bearing insertion was done, I just put the wirelock in on it's lonesome since it did not eyeball right. I'll leave that out of the install.
Thanks Jake!
05-02-2017, 01:52 PM
#113
Rennlist Member
^^Again, A such valuable source for the community! Jake, thank you for keeping us educated as I know your time is valuable and you really don't have to share it with anyone...
05-02-2017, 02:47 PM
#114
Racer
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Also, I guess within the last year or so I was in contact with Jake about the solution and he mentioned getting the LN ceramic single row replaced after about 50k miles and then go for the solution. If I still have the car by then I'll do that.
I trust these guys at LN, if they say do it around 50k then that's what I'll do.
