Flat6 Innovations

I had that from 2006 through 2013. There was no benefit to this so I closed it down, even though we had about 9,000 members. It took a lot of my time as I made 20,000 posts there over that period of time. It was generally a place for people to visit and parrot information to other foriums as their own. So I killed it and haven't looked back.

Then you'd not be purchasing an engine, you'd be purchasing a piece of paper. Those who realize that the best warranty is the one that you never have to use place the development of our engines above that of what a piece of paper can provide.

We don't offer a stock engine built with genuine parts, the last stock engine I built was shipped to Russia and that vehicle could not have any modifications made to it.

Because they had to. Also, if you buy a new Porsche crate engine today (hurry up because when the current inventory is gone there won't be anymore) you'll receive a 2 year 24,000 mile warranty. No one will tel you this, but if the engine fails and you make a claim and the engine was not installed by a dealership, then you have no warranty.


Those who choose to go to the track have chosen to risk their life and the life of their car and it's engine at the expense of some fun. I refuse to engage in finger pointing exercises, and with a vehicle thats tracked my word would be against theirs with no proof, this is known as a finger pointing exercise. No one wins, and people are only disappointed and pissed off when it occurs.

In my direct experience putting a warranty on a track engine INVITES problems as the driver doesn't care about taking care of the engine, because he thinks I'll pay for his problem and it'll be a free lunch for him. Lots of people think this about warrantys and thats why they want them, because they want someone else to be accountable for their own responsibilities.

I'd much rather deal with a guy who knows that he is ending his warranty when he goes to the track and is the right breed to be ok with that, than selling an engine to someone who is going to the track with a false sense of security that a piece of paper will keep his engine alive. Going to the track is risky, my most intelligent customers refrain from track time for the one year (unlimited miles) that the warranty is in place.

Also, one more point:
How many glorious warrantys are worth a damn? Most all of them include absurd conditions to adhere to and things that will void the warranty. There is so much BS that you really don't even have a warranty if you really sit down and read it. With my warranty there are 3 conditions, and only 3 conditions and no excuses.
1- No track service
2- Use only our engine oils that we developed. Hell, we even GIVE this oil to the purchasers while under warranty and the car is returned with a fresh sump fuull of intermediate break in oil when they receive it. We then put another case of oil in the trunk for the 2K mile service as well as a filter and an oil sample boittle thats already filled out with all the data that will be important for that sample. Further, we then give the owner 2 more coupons for more free oil throughout that year.
3-No over revs. We screen capture and time stamp ECUs when the car s being loaded and we photo and video document this. As long as there are no over revs then we are all good.

Trust that I put a whole lot more into making the engine good enough to sell with a 1 year warranty than a warranty or a few claims would cost me.

Less than 5 times a year I am asked about warranty, most people don't even expect to receive one and they are shocked when they do. I put no value in a warranty, when asked at an electronics store if I wanted an extended warranty for a new TV I bought my respinse was "No, I take chances, if the son of a bitch stops working I'll just take it out back and blow it away with a 12 gauge".. The guy looked shocked :-)

That said, we do work with a very good extended warranty company that will extend a discount for a bumper to bumper warranty (including engine) to our customers that have our engines. They extended a 500$ cost reduction to each warranty after we fit an engine to the car, and the best part is that we do all their repair work, so if the engine fails they pay for it and we repair it.

Here's something to ponder:
Last week I was testing a car that had my 3.6 big bore engine installed. I personally drive each car around 150 miles and pay very close attention to it. On my first test drive I feel the engine losing some throttle response above 5K RPM. I test these cars across a mountain here near the shop and its a 60 mile round trip across it. On long up hills the engine would speed up if I slightly lifted off the throttle. I knew what this symptom was so I looked at the long term fuel trim and noted that the ECU was adding fuel and it was within 1/10 of a value from popping a CEL. I strapped the car on the dyno and carefully watched the fuel adaptation values and lambda, all the while the AFR sensor for the dyno was in the tailpipe backing up my numbers.

Once it hit 5,300 RPM the engine would go fuull lean and the fuel trim would wig out. The engine ran fine and made decent power, it had zero symptoms that were notable while driving it, except liking less throttle input.

Based on these things we determined thet there was a fuel delivery problem. I consulted with the customer and told him that if his car had a fuel filter we'd think its clogged, but since it was too new to have one the fuel pump was going bad. He authorized the new fuel pump.. We installed it and the AFR numbers flat lined back to perfect, shirt and long term fuel trim values went back to 1 and 1 and the engine picked up power. It would no longer speed up if the throttle was lifted.

Had that engine had a warranty that fuel pump would have cost me a claim, when it wasn't the engines fault that it wasn't being fed with the proper ratio of air and fuel.

These cars are getting older, every 996 out there is approaching 10 years old now and sub systems don't last forever. Anything can kill an engine that feeds it fuel or ignition.

Here's a testimonial from the one and only warranty claim we've ever had to support. While we are on this topic I figured I'd post it. We offered to repair the engine before the owner ever asked us to. I take pride in doing the right thing even when no one is looking, and often times even though I don't have to.

Seeeu911

^Very satisfied customer testimony there.

It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently.

Warren Buffett

Seems to me that Jakes shop lives by that advice.

golftime

Jake, ignore the noise. You are hearing from the minority, albeit a very vocal minority, who more than likely fall into one of two categories - their car is the perfect performance car and has no problems (see the Corvette forum for a similar example); or they worked on their own and/or buddies engines a few times and feel they are now experts. And the internet is the perfect forum for them to flame anyone who voices a different opinion than their beliefs, with little or no accountability. The internet, for all the good it has done, has spawned this person.

Do you want to promote your business? I hope so. Capitalism is still the model last time I checked. And most successful business owners are proud of what they have built. Is that really surprising to everyone on this forum? However the contribution to the discussion is also way too valuable to lose. People can deny the IMS issue all they want, and some on this forum do so every time the topic comes up, but Porsche, the company who invented corporate secrecy and stonewalling (read the GT3 forum), didn't enter into class action settlement because of rumors and hype. They had to.

Sorry boys, a failure in maybe 8% of the cars, which grenades the motors at a cost of about $20k is a real problem. Every car may have achilles heals, but very few rise to that level. Porsche made the conscious decision to move away from a race ready engine and build cars to a price point in their water-cooled cars, and they need to own up to it. Porsche is still the legend, but the gap has closed and they need to up their game if they hope to stay there.

JohnCK2014

No one claims this car is perfect. We just like our cars. If you don't like them, don't come here. I don't like Nissans but I don't spend my time n the Nissan boards telling them how awful their cars are.

Beyond that, the 8% figure is in no way scientific and is at best a SWAG. Did some of these cars have IMS failure? Sure but many more of them didn't and haven't. Why that is the case is anyone's guess. The fact remains even by your SWAG, 92% of the cars were fabulous.

Lastly, Porsche have always been quirky high strung cars prone to catastrophic or expensive failure. There isn't a single generation of 911 that doesn't have something wrong with it. How many 993s have valve issues? A lot higher percentage of 993s had valve issues or leaked oil by the quart than 996s had IMS failures. They sold a ton of 996s, many more than any model of 911 ever made to that time. So the number of failures in raw numbers is going to be higher. The "Porsche used to make bullet proof cars that never had any issues until the evil 996" is just a load crapola and any honest air cooled owner will admit that.

Again, if you don't like 996s and think they are horrible, don't buy one.

JohnCK2014

Jack,

If you are so sure the cars will never break, then why not offer a longer warranty?

And I am sorry but "we have only had to fulfill one warranty claim sounds great until you realize YOUR WARRANTY IS ONLY A YEAR LONG. I would hope you have only had one claim. if you had more than that it would mean your engines couldn't even last a year.

And a warranty is more than a piece of paper. it is an expression of how much a company stands behind their product. A warranty is you betting your money nothing bad is going to happen.

dgjks6

Following this post is like watching an episode of Housewives, I just can't wait to see what is going to be posted next. Not that I have ever watched an episode.

BED997

My experience at Flat 6 was above and beyond for a preventative service. Jake, no point in getting frustrated with posters.

The 8% rate mentioned above was indicated in the docs for the class action lawsuit. Who knows the real number but the legal stuff is available to read so you can come to your own conclusions on the lawyer's website.

Flat6 Innovations

I sold just as many engines when I had zero warranty as I sell with a one year warranty... We maintain a minimum of 9 months of backlog on all reconstructions and we did that right through the worst part of the recession. That's with zero advertising in any publication. We can't do the work that we have, I sent away two jobs today.

I am taking a break from here. I take what I do too seriously to debate about it. I have to prepare to instruct my classes at the Worldpac Expo in a few days and those people deserve all that I can give them. They are paying for it.

See ya when I see ya.

golftime

I can now rest my case.

TSMacNeil

The Emperor now has no clothes.
This isn't about Jakes' work, or even his expertise, or even yet his satisfied customers.

It's about carpet-bombing this site with horror stories and pictures of catastrophic failures coupled with what I can only describe as a narcissism about ones' experiences with the engine.

You'd think Jake has built a spaceship or something...

I'm sure he's a fine shop owner/mechanic/M96 savant...whatever. He has or had a website where he publishes all of his horror stories and triumphant endeavors...I think that's exactly where that stuff belongs. It's fatiguing (and I'm new here) and hurts us all by fertilizing this website with his hi-def horror pictures...It hurts those who may be trying to sell their 996, and frustrates those of us who tire of having our cars verbally trashed continuously. It's obvious that Flat6 benefits from this dynamic, but it's more than that...to be sure.

" There was no benefit to this so I closed it down, even though we had about 9,000 members"...( Jake Raby on his own website)

There is something exceedingly passive-aggressive about this whole scenario.

JohnCK2014

You case for what? That you don't know much about Porsches? The facts are what they are. If you are unaware of them, go look on Pelican Parts of Total 911 and you will find all kinds of tales of woe about leaking 993s and expensive top end rebuilds. Doesn't mean the 993 isn't a great car. It is. It just means that every Porsche is a Porsche. That is not all bad. It is not all good either.

JohnCK2014

Amen. You said it better than I could have.

TSMacNeil

Well...it's silly.
I think I caught a glimpse of Jake walking across the lake as he left (for the night, in a so passive- aggressive way, but he'll be lurking and "back" shortly, because he can't stay away)

"I am taking a break from here. I take what I do too seriously to debate about it. I have to prepare to instruct my classes at the Worldpac Expo in a few days and those people deserve all that I can give them. They are paying for it."-(Jake Raby)

This is so 11th grade...it's beneath every single one of us who log on here.

If you run a good shop, your reputation precedes you...and you don't have to frighten people to impress them.

Using your logic, I'd dive my airplane towards the ground and pull out at the last minute, so that I save everyone.
Absurd.

garrett376

I agree, this is absurd: you guys are really telling someone who is passionate about a technical aspect of our hobby how to run his own business, telling him how he should communicate with others, and that his spaceship isn't a really spaceship? Why? If you don't like what is posted here or it frightens you or you get offended, then why do you read it and comment on it? If you don't like the warranty offered on his product, why don't you shop elsewhere? Or better yet, if what he's doing is so wrong, why not seize the opportunity you supposedly see, and create a comparable product and offer a longer warranty?

I don't understand what comments about seeing someone walking across water have to do with these technical discussions. What's the point of discounting his passion for what he does? I've been a part of this site for a lot of years and don't understand what goes on here.

DreamCarrera

I must agree with you, you really don't understand what goes on here.

The fact that Jake uses this site to post unsubstantiated 996 fearmongering, all in an effort to advertise his business, is tiresome to some of us 996 owners who visit this site to further the employment of our cars/hobby. Enough is enough. Most of us visit RL simply for entertainment and to discuss the cars we own/enjoy, to be continually bombarded with anecdotal doom and gloom by Jake and his disciples is a real drag. No company does this on any of the other car forums I visit(even though these cars all have serious issues unique to their model) and if they did, they would be run off by the enthusiasts who populate the site. For some reason, many 996 owner's seem to be into S&M and welcome the never ending duplicated/redundant horror stories by Jake.

Everyone by now knows of the potential 996 issues(real or not), in fact the 996 has become a redheaded stepchild due to them(in large part due to Jake carpet bombing the internet with BS hysteria, IMHO). To continually have to listen to Jake's BS serves no purpose to us at his point!!!

BTW, I love how Jake says he doesn't use this site as an integral part of his ad campaign, yet a few posts later he posts positive customer testimonials along with more fearmongering and chest beating. The irony is almost too far-fetched to believe, although it apparently goes over the heads of many here. HAHA