LN engineering single to dual row IMS
05-02-2014, 07:34 PM
#16
Instructor
I'd rent it from you. I plan on DIY'ing the IMS on my '04 later this year and had considered the LNE dual bearing retrofit but rejected the idea due to the cost of the tool. Having the option to rent it makes it more feasible. It would be awesome if you would document the bearing replacement in order to have an opinion on the complexities of the job from a DIY'er.
05-02-2014, 09:24 PM
#17
Former Vendor
There is a steep learning curve with the Faultless tool.. Once an installer has one job under their belt it's simple. One installer has already completed 13 Single Row Pro Retrofits using the Faultless tool.
I expect a DIY installer to have problems with the proficient use of the tool. That's why we train installers who are professionals. It's also the reason why we don't market the products to the DIY following.
Don't complain when it's a tougher job than you imagined, you have been warned! Advance at your own risk.
I expect a DIY installer to have problems with the proficient use of the tool. That's why we train installers who are professionals. It's also the reason why we don't market the products to the DIY following.
Don't complain when it's a tougher job than you imagined, you have been warned! Advance at your own risk.
05-02-2014, 10:26 PM
#18
Advanced
Thread Starter
I'm not planning to do it myself, mostly because of a lack of experience. A freind of mine with 20+ years of porsche experience is going to do it. If it is really that difficult, maybe it would be better to go with the classic LN bearing and just replace it in 40-50k miles.
05-02-2014, 10:33 PM
#19
Former Vendor
All his experience won't help, it may actually hurt things.. We see this all the time.
It's a procedural installation that requires situational awareness and extreme attention being paid to the fitment of the tool.
The classic retrofit is easier, but the Single Row Pro adds 90% more load carrying capacity. There is no free lunch, you have to work for it.
It's a procedural installation that requires situational awareness and extreme attention being paid to the fitment of the tool.
The classic retrofit is easier, but the Single Row Pro adds 90% more load carrying capacity. There is no free lunch, you have to work for it.
05-02-2014, 11:19 PM
#21
All his experience won't help, it may actually hurt things.. We see this all the time. It's a procedural installation that requires situational awareness and extreme attention being paid to the fitment of the tool. The classic retrofit is easier, but the Single Row Pro adds 90% more load carrying capacity. There is no free lunch, you have to work for it.
Ken
05-02-2014, 11:48 PM
#22
Former Vendor
It's not assumption, it's statistics.
We have to train installers specifically to work with these components and our experience has proven this. Primarily we must instruct installers in regard to pre qualifications of engines to be retrofitted, as these components must not be used to repair a failing engine or an engine that is experiencing an in process IMS bearing failure. People have to know what to look for, and they don't unless we share with them what we've learned from our experiences. You may ask why we don't share al this online? We would if there were not those who have joined the band wagon that we created and would use the information to further their own programs at our expense. These people already have robbed my process and use the extraction tool that I developed, so I refuse to train their installers, too. Instead I spend weeks of my life instructing technicians in private courses and now we are even training the sales staff of our distributors so that can assist technicians and shop owners in choosing the best IMS Retrofit technology for their application.
Each year as my instructor roles for Worldpac Training institute take me all across North America, I interface with 600 Porsche Technicians. These people vary from the 40 year experienced veteran to the kid who just dropped out of Wyotech and even include current and past Porsche dealership technicians. I spend between 16 -96 hours of my life with these groups of people and try to share with them the weapons they need to wage war with these engines and their unique issues and symptoms. The shortest training session that we offer is 16 hours and even then we have to jam the info in to cover it all.
It's a fact that the more previous Porsche experience the technicians have, the less they understand even the basics of the M96. In my classes the best technicians that have the best answers are time and again the guys who have cross trained from Asian vehicles.
I even have a session in the class called "Old dog, new trick" and I specifically address the seasoned veterans during this period and point blankly tell them that all their experience won't help them with the M96. It's entertaining to watch a 30 year old Subaru technician absolute school the seasoned Porsche veteran thats been working on 911s as long as the 30 year old has been alive while in my classes. This is especially true in my hands on 4 day class where a group assembles an M96 engine from scratch, and its all real as the engine will run as a developmental power plant. In that class I have actually had a prior dealer tech that was "Gold" level walk out after he was schooled by a kid who was souping up Subaru engines in his basement and decided to see what the M96 was like so he could by broken cars, fix and sell them.
I know these things, because all my previous aircooled Porsche experience is what has led to EVERY M96 mistake that I have ever made. Trust me, I have made lots if mistakes and this engine schooled my *** for 2-3 years before I finally learned that I couldn't treat it like something it wasn't. During that period I was only developing my program and components, and luckily wasn't offering anything to purchasers.
The DFI engines are even tougher and consume the veterans even harder. I just finished putting together material for my Worldpac Expo DFI engine class and the main focus of that class is to prepare the technicians for the change they'll experience when cross training from the M96 or other Porsche models over to the DFI engine that we've already been developing for 4 years now.
Over and over the support calls that we have to deal with come from a certain group, and yes, we do log each and every one of them. This is done just in case a component fails after install as we'll know that person or shop had a difficulty.
No, it's not rocket science. It's also not something that can be done via keyboard interface, and today there are too many technicians, and not enough mechanics. One of our better DIY installers works on restoring old John Deere tractors. He used the faultless tool the first time with perfect results and bragged about it like crazy.
As far as not doing business with me due to my firm statements, that are not sugar coated, well that's your perrogative. Others do share it, but that doesn't stop me from telling it like it is. People either love me because they think like me, or they hate me for being blunt, abrasive and determined. Neither group will ever change me.
The first thing you have to realize if if you do a retrofit you won't do business with me as I am the developer and have zero to do with sales. By the time a product hits the market I have received my last dollar from it. I care nothing about selling parts, anyone can do that.
You won't deal with me unless we carry out the Retrofit install here, or unless you buy a turn key engine, which will be fitted with all my developments.
Hope this clarifies a few things. I only care about accurate information, and not about the manner in which it is presented. That said, to sit through one of my classes is as entertaining as it is informative :-)
We have to train installers specifically to work with these components and our experience has proven this. Primarily we must instruct installers in regard to pre qualifications of engines to be retrofitted, as these components must not be used to repair a failing engine or an engine that is experiencing an in process IMS bearing failure. People have to know what to look for, and they don't unless we share with them what we've learned from our experiences. You may ask why we don't share al this online? We would if there were not those who have joined the band wagon that we created and would use the information to further their own programs at our expense. These people already have robbed my process and use the extraction tool that I developed, so I refuse to train their installers, too. Instead I spend weeks of my life instructing technicians in private courses and now we are even training the sales staff of our distributors so that can assist technicians and shop owners in choosing the best IMS Retrofit technology for their application.
Each year as my instructor roles for Worldpac Training institute take me all across North America, I interface with 600 Porsche Technicians. These people vary from the 40 year experienced veteran to the kid who just dropped out of Wyotech and even include current and past Porsche dealership technicians. I spend between 16 -96 hours of my life with these groups of people and try to share with them the weapons they need to wage war with these engines and their unique issues and symptoms. The shortest training session that we offer is 16 hours and even then we have to jam the info in to cover it all.
It's a fact that the more previous Porsche experience the technicians have, the less they understand even the basics of the M96. In my classes the best technicians that have the best answers are time and again the guys who have cross trained from Asian vehicles.
I even have a session in the class called "Old dog, new trick" and I specifically address the seasoned veterans during this period and point blankly tell them that all their experience won't help them with the M96. It's entertaining to watch a 30 year old Subaru technician absolute school the seasoned Porsche veteran thats been working on 911s as long as the 30 year old has been alive while in my classes. This is especially true in my hands on 4 day class where a group assembles an M96 engine from scratch, and its all real as the engine will run as a developmental power plant. In that class I have actually had a prior dealer tech that was "Gold" level walk out after he was schooled by a kid who was souping up Subaru engines in his basement and decided to see what the M96 was like so he could by broken cars, fix and sell them.
I know these things, because all my previous aircooled Porsche experience is what has led to EVERY M96 mistake that I have ever made. Trust me, I have made lots if mistakes and this engine schooled my *** for 2-3 years before I finally learned that I couldn't treat it like something it wasn't. During that period I was only developing my program and components, and luckily wasn't offering anything to purchasers.
The DFI engines are even tougher and consume the veterans even harder. I just finished putting together material for my Worldpac Expo DFI engine class and the main focus of that class is to prepare the technicians for the change they'll experience when cross training from the M96 or other Porsche models over to the DFI engine that we've already been developing for 4 years now.
Over and over the support calls that we have to deal with come from a certain group, and yes, we do log each and every one of them. This is done just in case a component fails after install as we'll know that person or shop had a difficulty.
No, it's not rocket science. It's also not something that can be done via keyboard interface, and today there are too many technicians, and not enough mechanics. One of our better DIY installers works on restoring old John Deere tractors. He used the faultless tool the first time with perfect results and bragged about it like crazy.
As far as not doing business with me due to my firm statements, that are not sugar coated, well that's your perrogative. Others do share it, but that doesn't stop me from telling it like it is. People either love me because they think like me, or they hate me for being blunt, abrasive and determined. Neither group will ever change me.
The first thing you have to realize if if you do a retrofit you won't do business with me as I am the developer and have zero to do with sales. By the time a product hits the market I have received my last dollar from it. I care nothing about selling parts, anyone can do that.
You won't deal with me unless we carry out the Retrofit install here, or unless you buy a turn key engine, which will be fitted with all my developments.
Hope this clarifies a few things. I only care about accurate information, and not about the manner in which it is presented. That said, to sit through one of my classes is as entertaining as it is informative :-)
Last edited by Flat6 Innovations; 05-03-2014 at 12:45 AM.
05-03-2014, 10:02 AM
#24
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
Most real gearheads worked on many different cars over the years. Looks we are the perfect candidates to work on these engines. 
Jake, your writing style is too high level. It makes people feel like they are inferriornwhen reading it. Writing at a lower level is more effective when it comes to getting the message across and to capture the audiance. I read and write technical reports every week and the simpler a report is written the better it actually is. Using words like " I interface with..." when a simple "I deal with..." does a better job of getting the reader to easily understand what the message is. Also, using high level technical words/terms will disconnect you from the reader. It comes across as an person that thinks he is better and smarter than anyone else. Even if you are, reminding the reader will do no good.
Jake, your writing style is too high level. It makes people feel like they are inferriornwhen reading it. Writing at a lower level is more effective when it comes to getting the message across and to capture the audiance. I read and write technical reports every week and the simpler a report is written the better it actually is. Using words like " I interface with..." when a simple "I deal with..." does a better job of getting the reader to easily understand what the message is. Also, using high level technical words/terms will disconnect you from the reader. It comes across as an person that thinks he is better and smarter than anyone else. Even if you are, reminding the reader will do no good.
05-03-2014, 10:05 AM
#25
Rennlist Member
+1. Like a good trial lawyer to a jury or effective teacher conveying subjects in a class room. The simpler you can breakdown a complex topic, the better you will be capturing your audience.
05-03-2014, 11:12 AM
#26
Former Vendor
I consider Porsche owners to be intellectuals.
You guys are right. Not too bad for a guy that was in Special Ed i
Since 3rd grade, huh?
:-)
Anyway, back to the subject at hand. I realize that even though we do everything we can to keep these components from getting into DIY circulation (at the cost of huge sales volumes) that this is still happening. It's a fine line that must be walked concerning how to support these efforts. As the developer I am happy that those decisions are made by others, after my part is completed. In times past I offered paid consulting, which didn't work either because it just pissed people off when they were told that it cost them money for answers- when one person whined about that online I cut it out completely.
If it would ever be possible to train an individual to now what we know about the dynamics if these installs they could sell to and support a DIY market. That person doesn't seem to exist.
You guys are right. Not too bad for a guy that was in Special Ed i
Since 3rd grade, huh?
:-)
Anyway, back to the subject at hand. I realize that even though we do everything we can to keep these components from getting into DIY circulation (at the cost of huge sales volumes) that this is still happening. It's a fine line that must be walked concerning how to support these efforts. As the developer I am happy that those decisions are made by others, after my part is completed. In times past I offered paid consulting, which didn't work either because it just pissed people off when they were told that it cost them money for answers- when one person whined about that online I cut it out completely.
If it would ever be possible to train an individual to now what we know about the dynamics if these installs they could sell to and support a DIY market. That person doesn't seem to exist.
05-03-2014, 12:49 PM
#27
Really exhausted from the pissing contest between individuals who claim that their solution is THE solution. Ceramic bearing, 2-row, cylindrical, direct oil feed, plain bearing plus oil feed...everyone claiming the other guy's product is crap. Sheesh! I paid $1700 (plus a clutch kit) to have the LN single row bearing put in mine 20K miles ago and I'm betting it goes the life of the engine. My OEM bearing probably would have been in the 92% that don't fail. It came out at 30K miles with seal intact, full of grease, and no oil in the IMS tube. I'll be damned if I'm going to spend another nickel on the IMS or lose a minute of worry on it. I've got an extended warranty for 3 more years if the engine blows. I'm so done obsessing over this thing.
05-03-2014, 12:55 PM
#28
Former Vendor
Please post pics of the grease filled OEM is
IMSB. I have only seen one engine that has had any grease left in the factory bearing and the engine had 4k miles on it. We have completed over 400 IMSR procedures here and one out of 400 had grease.
IMSB. I have only seen one engine that has had any grease left in the factory bearing and the engine had 4k miles on it. We have completed over 400 IMSR procedures here and one out of 400 had grease.
05-04-2014, 06:14 AM
#29
Drifting
Are you seriously stating that in your professional experience(as the self -proclaimed god of the M96)that you have only seen 1 out of 400 factory IM$Bs still containing the factory filled grease??? This is complete BULL $HIT!!! If this were true, the rate of failure(remember, all mechanical things eventually fail) would certainly be much higher. Statements like this are why you have absolutely zero credibility in my book.
I, as a mere 996 owning mortal, have seen countless perfectly fine bearings needlessly replaced that still contained the factory grease(yes, the grease was documented as still being contained within the bearing). I have seen it many times and I don't even regularly pay attention to this topic. How is it possible that you have not seen these? Please note, this is a rhetorical question as I already know the answer. For those of you that have not progressed beyond the level of SE(of which I am sure there is no one here, but just in case) the answer is: JR uses this forum as his own private infomercial...BTW, is that really an option when you sign up to be a RL sponsor. If so, JR sure gets his money's worth...
It is hard to visit RL's 996 section(BTW, many of the other RL sections are great) without being inundated by JR's hysteria/fear mongering created aftermath. Between the BS statements like the one I quoted above and the ridiculous/unscientific poll that appears at the top of this forum, the 996 forum has become(for many years now) a laughingstock of a place...Congrats RL.
BTW, JR, I particularly like your story about the young Japanese brand based mechanics schooling the veteran Pcar mechanics when it comes to the M96 engine. HAHA I don't care who you are, that is some funny stuff...I particularly like the way you state it as an absolute fact, as though there has never been a veteran Pcar mechanic who could comprehend the M96 engine. If your gig as a self-proclaimed Porsche guru doesn't pan out, I think you may have a real future as a fiction writer.
