996 vs. E65/66
12-30-2013, 04:25 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
996 vs. E65/66
Well, the wife's 2006 S430 4matic is in the shop with transmission issues above my ability to repair at home. Also looks like it will need new lower control arms soon (which are pricey). As it is getting a little long in the tooth (167,000+ miles now) and we've had it for over 2 years, I am looking at replacement vehicles. I typically get her a 6 or 7 year old European luxury sedan with right at 100,000 miles, usually in the $15,000 neighborhood. At that point, the rampant depreciation has slowed but well cared for examples still have a lot of life left in them. Since I've got a dealer's license, I have access to the wholesale auctions. With a little research in advance on typical trouble spots for various models, I can avoid most pitfalls of the auctions.
I've had 3 or 4 7-series BMWs over the years, and they've been pretty good cars, but the newest I've had has been a 2001 model. I saw several 2002 to 2006 models listed for today's auction, and thought I might just buy one if there was a nice example there and put the S430 up for sale.
I went to the various BMW forums last night to research, and good God, they make our 996's seem like Honda Accords! If you want to feel better about the maintenance issues we face, go read up on what those poor bastards are dealing with in the E65/66 model range. Glad I didn't pull the trigger on one of those.
Krazy K, don't go over there unless you have a couple of paper bags handy 'cause you'll hyperventilate in a heartbeat.
I've had 3 or 4 7-series BMWs over the years, and they've been pretty good cars, but the newest I've had has been a 2001 model. I saw several 2002 to 2006 models listed for today's auction, and thought I might just buy one if there was a nice example there and put the S430 up for sale.
I went to the various BMW forums last night to research, and good God, they make our 996's seem like Honda Accords! If you want to feel better about the maintenance issues we face, go read up on what those poor bastards are dealing with in the E65/66 model range. Glad I didn't pull the trigger on one of those.
Krazy K, don't go over there unless you have a couple of paper bags handy 'cause you'll hyperventilate in a heartbeat.
12-30-2013, 04:41 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
Late model 5/7 series, and E/S classes should no longer be even considered as 2nd hand cars. They are computers on wheels, overloaded with buttons and electronics.
12-30-2013, 04:47 PM
#3
Race Director
God, I hated the iDrive in our X5. What a POS interface.
I was bothered by a number of things - the urea tank (diesel) that needed periodic filling and would prevent it from starting if ignored for too long, the hidden battery and other attempts to make it non-user-serviceable, the exhaust gas cooler that cracked @ 5,000 miles and leaked diesel exhaust into the cabin, the absolutely STUPID electronic interface for the parking brake, and of course the fact that a $50K BMW was equipped inexcusably compared to the $30K Nissan Murano that replaced it.
I was bothered by a number of things - the urea tank (diesel) that needed periodic filling and would prevent it from starting if ignored for too long, the hidden battery and other attempts to make it non-user-serviceable, the exhaust gas cooler that cracked @ 5,000 miles and leaked diesel exhaust into the cabin, the absolutely STUPID electronic interface for the parking brake, and of course the fact that a $50K BMW was equipped inexcusably compared to the $30K Nissan Murano that replaced it.
12-30-2013, 06:16 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Agree wholeheartedly on the complicated interfaces. Thinking about getting another Jaguar XJ. Have had a '99 XJR, an '04 XJ8 and an '08 XJ8L. All 3 were really great cars and you can change the radio station without referring to the owner's manual. They look great, were dirt cheap to buy, got good gas mileage and were very reliable. Hard to believe we've come to the point where Jaguars and Porsches are less headaches than BMW and Mercedes sedans.
12-30-2013, 08:20 PM
#6
Three Wheelin'
Agree wholeheartedly on the complicated interfaces. Thinking about getting another Jaguar XJ. Have had a '99 XJR, an '04 XJ8 and an '08 XJ8L. All 3 were really great cars and you can change the radio station without referring to the owner's manual. They look great, were dirt cheap to buy, got good gas mileage and were very reliable. Hard to believe we've come to the point where Jaguars and Porsches are less headaches than BMW and Mercedes sedans.
I know Jag's have a terrible reputation but the XJ's are MUCH better than the rebodied Ford X and S types. Great motor, super fuel efficient (30+ on the highway), nice 6-speed ZF gearbox, etc. Mine has been dead reliable, simple to work on (although enthusiast, forum and parts support leave a lot to be desired if you plan to wrench on it yourself as I do) and I still get compliments driving my kids to school in it! Go figure, its worth less than a 2004 Honda!
My daily beater:
12-30-2013, 09:42 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
BMWs are great driving cars but very cheaply made, I'm always shocked at the premature wear and issues that are tolerated by their enthusiasts. After 3 BMWs and 2 Minis, never again....
I had a 2000 XJR that was a superb car. Beautiful inside and out, an absolute rocket, and very reliable. The backseat is not adult sized however, and like the E55 AMG make sure it gets the "lifetime" ATF fluid and filter changed at 80k or so. The newer XJR has a complicated and unreliable air suspension, so be aware of issues there.
An often forgotten super sedan is the D2 Audi S8. 360 HP V8, AWD, all aluminum, Tiptronic gearbox. I just sold a 2002 that was a simply incredible car. I've owned some pretty good cars, but it was the best build quality I have encountered. Very reliable and maintenance was easy. Really great driving car and effortless in the snow. I can't recommend it highly enough.
I had a 2000 XJR that was a superb car. Beautiful inside and out, an absolute rocket, and very reliable. The backseat is not adult sized however, and like the E55 AMG make sure it gets the "lifetime" ATF fluid and filter changed at 80k or so. The newer XJR has a complicated and unreliable air suspension, so be aware of issues there.
An often forgotten super sedan is the D2 Audi S8. 360 HP V8, AWD, all aluminum, Tiptronic gearbox. I just sold a 2002 that was a simply incredible car. I've owned some pretty good cars, but it was the best build quality I have encountered. Very reliable and maintenance was easy. Really great driving car and effortless in the snow. I can't recommend it highly enough.
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12-30-2013, 09:49 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
LOL...Im fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to own both. I have a 2006 750 Li (e66) and an 02 996 cab.
Bimmer is a GREAT car...once its sorted. Remember that people post on Bimmerfest (and others) when they 1) have a problem or 2) need to know what offset they need for 22" rims. People rarely post about trouble free cars....
My folks bought my car in 2008, and it was CPO. When mom passed away in 2010, dad wanted to sell it, and I needed a bigger car, so we struck a deal (trade + cash for my Volvo S60R)...When I got the car it had about 60k miles, now has about 120k. I tend to do a lot of research, and like to try to DIY on cars if possible. Here is what I know/think of the e66:
They are finicky. They are loaded with luxury stuff (soft close doors, soft close trunk, rear window shades, active roll bars, power everything, etc). Great features, but as the cars age, they start to sometimes malfunction. So far, only stupid thing on my car was that the I-drive freaked out. Had to get the controller replaced.
Avoid the 1st generation car (745). The facelifted cars (2006+) not only look better, they apparently have some of the engine issues worked out. For example, the 745 had issues with the secondary air passages plugging up, which is an expensive fix. They also are more prone to a leaking coolant bypass pipe, which is also an expensive fix (although there are aftermarket solutions that are less expensive). The second gen cars seem to have fewer failures of the ancillaries (comfort features) as well.
Transmissions cause headaches if you don't change the fluid. Don't believe the "lifetime" fluid claim. Also, there is a mechatronics adapter/sleeve that often has issues. Not a really expensive fix, some do it as preventative maintenance.
Consider an aftermarket warranty. Most people bad mouth them, but I did a lot of research, picked one that covered the big things, and it has more than doubled its money in payout so far. Biggest thing I have had go out (that they covered) was the trans and the I-drive controller. Those two alone would have been about $9500.
Some of the parts/labor are really expensive. Like "Porsche parts are downright reasonable" expensive. For example, list price for the DVD drive for the nav system is $4k. IF you have a good dealer and have a good relationship with the SA, they frequently can help on stuff like that. Also, internet parts houses and reman stuff can be a lot more reasonable.
They are really computer heavy....and sometimes BMW makes it harder than it should be. FOr example, there was a software patch to smooth out trans shifting that BMW issued. However, it wasn't compatible with the DME for my car. (yes, they wrote a patch that was not compatible with the car they wrote it for...). BMW answer was to replace the DME with a new one. Fortunately for me my SA got them to goodwill it. Bottom line is that sometimes even the dealer has trouble with the computers in these cars.
ON the other hand, I LOVE the car. It is among the best sedans in the world, has loads of room (Im 6'4", so that matters) Lots of room for kids in the back. And it is an amazing car to drive. Fast, powerful, sure footed, firm without being harsh. I have no idea what car I will replace it with...its that good on the road (IMHO).
Overall, my car has been pretty trouble free. Aside from the trans issue, rarely to the dealer. Never left me stranded (touch wood). Hasn't been the money pit I was fearing at all (again, touch wood). In my experience, once these cars are sorted, they are pretty solid, and a ball to drive. What I would say is if you can find an 06-07, with low-ish miles, with service history, it should be great.
Hope this helps; YMMV
PS - PM me if you want to discuss via phone, any specific questions, etc.
Bimmer is a GREAT car...once its sorted. Remember that people post on Bimmerfest (and others) when they 1) have a problem or 2) need to know what offset they need for 22" rims. People rarely post about trouble free cars....
My folks bought my car in 2008, and it was CPO. When mom passed away in 2010, dad wanted to sell it, and I needed a bigger car, so we struck a deal (trade + cash for my Volvo S60R)...When I got the car it had about 60k miles, now has about 120k. I tend to do a lot of research, and like to try to DIY on cars if possible. Here is what I know/think of the e66:
They are finicky. They are loaded with luxury stuff (soft close doors, soft close trunk, rear window shades, active roll bars, power everything, etc). Great features, but as the cars age, they start to sometimes malfunction. So far, only stupid thing on my car was that the I-drive freaked out. Had to get the controller replaced.
Avoid the 1st generation car (745). The facelifted cars (2006+) not only look better, they apparently have some of the engine issues worked out. For example, the 745 had issues with the secondary air passages plugging up, which is an expensive fix. They also are more prone to a leaking coolant bypass pipe, which is also an expensive fix (although there are aftermarket solutions that are less expensive). The second gen cars seem to have fewer failures of the ancillaries (comfort features) as well.
Transmissions cause headaches if you don't change the fluid. Don't believe the "lifetime" fluid claim. Also, there is a mechatronics adapter/sleeve that often has issues. Not a really expensive fix, some do it as preventative maintenance.
Consider an aftermarket warranty. Most people bad mouth them, but I did a lot of research, picked one that covered the big things, and it has more than doubled its money in payout so far. Biggest thing I have had go out (that they covered) was the trans and the I-drive controller. Those two alone would have been about $9500.
Some of the parts/labor are really expensive. Like "Porsche parts are downright reasonable" expensive. For example, list price for the DVD drive for the nav system is $4k. IF you have a good dealer and have a good relationship with the SA, they frequently can help on stuff like that. Also, internet parts houses and reman stuff can be a lot more reasonable.
They are really computer heavy....and sometimes BMW makes it harder than it should be. FOr example, there was a software patch to smooth out trans shifting that BMW issued. However, it wasn't compatible with the DME for my car. (yes, they wrote a patch that was not compatible with the car they wrote it for...). BMW answer was to replace the DME with a new one. Fortunately for me my SA got them to goodwill it. Bottom line is that sometimes even the dealer has trouble with the computers in these cars.
ON the other hand, I LOVE the car. It is among the best sedans in the world, has loads of room (Im 6'4", so that matters) Lots of room for kids in the back. And it is an amazing car to drive. Fast, powerful, sure footed, firm without being harsh. I have no idea what car I will replace it with...its that good on the road (IMHO).
Overall, my car has been pretty trouble free. Aside from the trans issue, rarely to the dealer. Never left me stranded (touch wood). Hasn't been the money pit I was fearing at all (again, touch wood). In my experience, once these cars are sorted, they are pretty solid, and a ball to drive. What I would say is if you can find an 06-07, with low-ish miles, with service history, it should be great.
Hope this helps; YMMV
PS - PM me if you want to discuss via phone, any specific questions, etc.
12-30-2013, 10:48 PM
#9
Hi KCA,
This may sound "too old", but you might think of a W124 M-B, either sedan or coupe. I know, I know, the last year was 1995! But these are excellent cars, before too much electronics got tossed on. I've had several of these E class 124s as well as S class, still drive a '95 E320 coupe which is close to a perfect 1-2 person car. Like the 993, M-B just happened to get everything right on this model.
Bill
Boulder, CO
This may sound "too old", but you might think of a W124 M-B, either sedan or coupe. I know, I know, the last year was 1995! But these are excellent cars, before too much electronics got tossed on. I've had several of these E class 124s as well as S class, still drive a '95 E320 coupe which is close to a perfect 1-2 person car. Like the 993, M-B just happened to get everything right on this model.
Bill
Boulder, CO
12-31-2013, 12:13 AM
#10
Pro
Hi KCA,
This may sound "too old", but you might think of a W124 M-B, either sedan or coupe. I know, I know, the last year was 1995! But these are excellent cars, before too much electronics got tossed on. I've had several of these E class 124s as well as S class, still drive a '95 E320 coupe which is close to a perfect 1-2 person car. Like the 993, M-B just happened to get everything right on this model.
Bill
Boulder, CO
This may sound "too old", but you might think of a W124 M-B, either sedan or coupe. I know, I know, the last year was 1995! But these are excellent cars, before too much electronics got tossed on. I've had several of these E class 124s as well as S class, still drive a '95 E320 coupe which is close to a perfect 1-2 person car. Like the 993, M-B just happened to get everything right on this model.
Bill
Boulder, CO
12-31-2013, 12:20 PM
#11
I would say upto 2003 BMW E39 should be pretty reliable. My 1999 E39 5 series lasted for 14yrs w/o a major incident, just did a typical engine oil change at home every year. We replaced it with Lexus RX350.
Also considered MB E-series, not sure what their production model# is, but MY 2003-2009 I think, stay away from those, there is an outstanding class action lawsuit going on due to the fuel tank leak.
If I were you I would look for 2003 BMW 530i. But again, that's soon to be 11 yrs old car, not sure if you want your wife to be driving that old car....
Also considered MB E-series, not sure what their production model# is, but MY 2003-2009 I think, stay away from those, there is an outstanding class action lawsuit going on due to the fuel tank leak.
If I were you I would look for 2003 BMW 530i. But again, that's soon to be 11 yrs old car, not sure if you want your wife to be driving that old car....
12-31-2013, 12:23 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
01-01-2014, 10:37 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
LOL...Im fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to own both. I have a 2006 750 Li (e66) and an 02 996 cab.
Bimmer is a GREAT car...once its sorted. Remember that people post on Bimmerfest (and others) when they 1) have a problem or 2) need to know what offset they need for 22" rims. People rarely post about trouble free cars....
My folks bought my car in 2008, and it was CPO. When mom passed away in 2010, dad wanted to sell it, and I needed a bigger car, so we struck a deal (trade + cash for my Volvo S60R)...When I got the car it had about 60k miles, now has about 120k. I tend to do a lot of research, and like to try to DIY on cars if possible. Here is what I know/think of the e66:
They are finicky. They are loaded with luxury stuff (soft close doors, soft close trunk, rear window shades, active roll bars, power everything, etc). Great features, but as the cars age, they start to sometimes malfunction. So far, only stupid thing on my car was that the I-drive freaked out. Had to get the controller replaced.
Avoid the 1st generation car (745). The facelifted cars (2006+) not only look better, they apparently have some of the engine issues worked out. For example, the 745 had issues with the secondary air passages plugging up, which is an expensive fix. They also are more prone to a leaking coolant bypass pipe, which is also an expensive fix (although there are aftermarket solutions that are less expensive). The second gen cars seem to have fewer failures of the ancillaries (comfort features) as well.
Transmissions cause headaches if you don't change the fluid. Don't believe the "lifetime" fluid claim. Also, there is a mechatronics adapter/sleeve that often has issues. Not a really expensive fix, some do it as preventative maintenance.
Consider an aftermarket warranty. Most people bad mouth them, but I did a lot of research, picked one that covered the big things, and it has more than doubled its money in payout so far. Biggest thing I have had go out (that they covered) was the trans and the I-drive controller. Those two alone would have been about $9500.
Some of the parts/labor are really expensive. Like "Porsche parts are downright reasonable" expensive. For example, list price for the DVD drive for the nav system is $4k. IF you have a good dealer and have a good relationship with the SA, they frequently can help on stuff like that. Also, internet parts houses and reman stuff can be a lot more reasonable.
They are really computer heavy....and sometimes BMW makes it harder than it should be. FOr example, there was a software patch to smooth out trans shifting that BMW issued. However, it wasn't compatible with the DME for my car. (yes, they wrote a patch that was not compatible with the car they wrote it for...). BMW answer was to replace the DME with a new one. Fortunately for me my SA got them to goodwill it. Bottom line is that sometimes even the dealer has trouble with the computers in these cars.
ON the other hand, I LOVE the car. It is among the best sedans in the world, has loads of room (Im 6'4", so that matters) Lots of room for kids in the back. And it is an amazing car to drive. Fast, powerful, sure footed, firm without being harsh. I have no idea what car I will replace it with...its that good on the road (IMHO).
Overall, my car has been pretty trouble free. Aside from the trans issue, rarely to the dealer. Never left me stranded (touch wood). Hasn't been the money pit I was fearing at all (again, touch wood). In my experience, once these cars are sorted, they are pretty solid, and a ball to drive. What I would say is if you can find an 06-07, with low-ish miles, with service history, it should be great.
Hope this helps; YMMV
PS - PM me if you want to discuss via phone, any specific questions, etc.
Bimmer is a GREAT car...once its sorted. Remember that people post on Bimmerfest (and others) when they 1) have a problem or 2) need to know what offset they need for 22" rims. People rarely post about trouble free cars....
My folks bought my car in 2008, and it was CPO. When mom passed away in 2010, dad wanted to sell it, and I needed a bigger car, so we struck a deal (trade + cash for my Volvo S60R)...When I got the car it had about 60k miles, now has about 120k. I tend to do a lot of research, and like to try to DIY on cars if possible. Here is what I know/think of the e66:
They are finicky. They are loaded with luxury stuff (soft close doors, soft close trunk, rear window shades, active roll bars, power everything, etc). Great features, but as the cars age, they start to sometimes malfunction. So far, only stupid thing on my car was that the I-drive freaked out. Had to get the controller replaced.
Avoid the 1st generation car (745). The facelifted cars (2006+) not only look better, they apparently have some of the engine issues worked out. For example, the 745 had issues with the secondary air passages plugging up, which is an expensive fix. They also are more prone to a leaking coolant bypass pipe, which is also an expensive fix (although there are aftermarket solutions that are less expensive). The second gen cars seem to have fewer failures of the ancillaries (comfort features) as well.
Transmissions cause headaches if you don't change the fluid. Don't believe the "lifetime" fluid claim. Also, there is a mechatronics adapter/sleeve that often has issues. Not a really expensive fix, some do it as preventative maintenance.
Consider an aftermarket warranty. Most people bad mouth them, but I did a lot of research, picked one that covered the big things, and it has more than doubled its money in payout so far. Biggest thing I have had go out (that they covered) was the trans and the I-drive controller. Those two alone would have been about $9500.
Some of the parts/labor are really expensive. Like "Porsche parts are downright reasonable" expensive. For example, list price for the DVD drive for the nav system is $4k. IF you have a good dealer and have a good relationship with the SA, they frequently can help on stuff like that. Also, internet parts houses and reman stuff can be a lot more reasonable.
They are really computer heavy....and sometimes BMW makes it harder than it should be. FOr example, there was a software patch to smooth out trans shifting that BMW issued. However, it wasn't compatible with the DME for my car. (yes, they wrote a patch that was not compatible with the car they wrote it for...). BMW answer was to replace the DME with a new one. Fortunately for me my SA got them to goodwill it. Bottom line is that sometimes even the dealer has trouble with the computers in these cars.
ON the other hand, I LOVE the car. It is among the best sedans in the world, has loads of room (Im 6'4", so that matters) Lots of room for kids in the back. And it is an amazing car to drive. Fast, powerful, sure footed, firm without being harsh. I have no idea what car I will replace it with...its that good on the road (IMHO).
Overall, my car has been pretty trouble free. Aside from the trans issue, rarely to the dealer. Never left me stranded (touch wood). Hasn't been the money pit I was fearing at all (again, touch wood). In my experience, once these cars are sorted, they are pretty solid, and a ball to drive. What I would say is if you can find an 06-07, with low-ish miles, with service history, it should be great.
Hope this helps; YMMV
PS - PM me if you want to discuss via phone, any specific questions, etc.
01-01-2014, 11:54 PM
#14
Three Wheelin'
If you want a RELIABLE luxury car, you have to stick to Acura/Infinity models. Test drive RL from 2005-2008, it is the THE most reliable luxury car on the market (consumer reports: October 2010, the Acura RL was named by Consumer Reports [55] as the most reliable new car among luxury sedans). Extremely undervalued car and offers phenomenal reliability and technology for the money you can get them. Once my TL gets to 300k miles, I will buy the RL for a daily driver.
If you stick to the facts, Honda makes THE most reliable engines on the market. They perfected their NA I4 and V6 motors to the unbelievable levels. They never bothered with much FI, they stuck to the high revving, small displacement I4 and V6 motors for the last 20 years. It has paid off. Personal experiences aside, statistically you are almost guaranteed to get a Honda/Acura that is reliable when compared to European brands.
Servicing is also much more DIY friendly on the Honda cars, and infinitely cheaper than on the Germans. My Acura 3.2 V6 makes almost the same power as 996, takes 1/2 of the oil and does not require any special fluids. All fluid changes can be done without even jacking up the car. Go Walmart, get all fluids for Honda for $100, change them in 1 hour, drive happily for 10k miles, rinse and repeat.
http://www.carscoops.com/2013/01/war...uks-least.html
If you stick to the facts, Honda makes THE most reliable engines on the market. They perfected their NA I4 and V6 motors to the unbelievable levels. They never bothered with much FI, they stuck to the high revving, small displacement I4 and V6 motors for the last 20 years. It has paid off. Personal experiences aside, statistically you are almost guaranteed to get a Honda/Acura that is reliable when compared to European brands.
Servicing is also much more DIY friendly on the Honda cars, and infinitely cheaper than on the Germans. My Acura 3.2 V6 makes almost the same power as 996, takes 1/2 of the oil and does not require any special fluids. All fluid changes can be done without even jacking up the car. Go Walmart, get all fluids for Honda for $100, change them in 1 hour, drive happily for 10k miles, rinse and repeat.
http://www.carscoops.com/2013/01/war...uks-least.html
01-02-2014, 01:20 AM
#15
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I had an M35 Sport for about 6 months, I think it was an '06. Never been a big fan of the Japanese cars, but I did like that car.
Have had a couple of E39's and agree they are great cars. Just would like to stay with a 2006 or newer vehicle. Too bad that the newer German cars seem to be too much of a risk. Will probably look for an '08 Jaguar Super V8 or one of the Japanese luxury brands.
Have had a couple of E39's and agree they are great cars. Just would like to stay with a 2006 or newer vehicle. Too bad that the newer German cars seem to be too much of a risk. Will probably look for an '08 Jaguar Super V8 or one of the Japanese luxury brands.