Sue Esponte

I had an oil analysis run on my C4S recently. I was wondering if any of you had any thoughts on the write up I received. I haven't driven it very hard (I've had it since 2011) but I know the PO had it on a track a few times. I think he sent me a picture of it at Laguna Seca. I had Porsche do the last oil change -- my recollection was that it was a 0W40 weight Mobil1 oil but I wasn't sure. That's what I put into it when I changed it.



-Eric

LexVan

It's one report. Looks fine. This is your baseline. Keep doing them. Consider a "better" oil in the future.

Some comps from this week:

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-analysis.html

relinuca

A few years ago, I asked Allan Caldwell, at the time Panorama magazine's top tech expert, what the Porsche factory considered to be "an acceptable range" of values for the major components of commercial oil analysis.

He reponded with a lengthy scholarly article about oil viscosity, mineral analysis, etc., that appeared in Panorama in the fall, 2010 (I think).

Bottom line? Porsche is/was unwilling to go on record about this issue...wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole (except to reiterate their oil usage and changing schedules).

relinuca

Flat6 Innovations

Aluminum, iron and copper are all more than double what my acceptable levels are even in a 5K mile service interval. These are characteristic with camshaft/ lifter wear and the associated secondary wear that is catalyzed by this when the oil becomes material laden and bypasses the OEM oil filter at start up.

We usually see iron become elevated first, them aluminum, lead and then copper as this is the composition of the main and rod bearings. Blackstone doesn't know this, because they are not engine developers.

Copper= worn bearings, as there is no other copper within the engine's composition.

Without TBN or TAN values its hard to say how much corrosive wear that the materials could have been seeing on top of mechanical wear.

A good illustration of this with forum members engine (symptomless other then the UOA elevations) last year is here:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...4914693&type=3

Here is your aluminum, lead, tin and copper, from Mike's engine.

Macster

Aren't the valve guides a copper alloy (bronze)?

Macster

How did you collect the oil sample for the analysis? If you used the oil from the filter housing this has a concentration of whatever metals the engine has shed and the ppms numbers can be biased towards the high side.

Flat6 Innovations

Worn valve guides in these engines show up in our UOA as manganese. The only deviation to this is the 1997 Boxster engines that used a higher silicon/ bronze level in their composition over manganese than all other M96 engines we have noted to date.

The engine I referenced above had perfect valve guides upon disassembly.

Seeing the aluminum levels higher right along with the copper and the fact that iron is higher than both of them, follows a trait that we have witnessed several times.

That said, I'd do another UOA and use someone other than Blackstone.

Sue Esponte

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

These may sound like stupid questions but is this additional wear that's typically caused by driving style? Is there something preventative that I could be doing to decrease the level of wear these levels might be indicating? As for bypassing the oil filter, it might be useful to note that when I pulled the sump pan after draining the oil I did not find any noticeable debris in the pan.

I followed Blackstone's instructions for capturing the oil. After removing the oil plug from the pan I tried to capture the draining oil mid-stream directly in the clear container they provided for the analysis. I did not use oil directly from the filter housing. I don't know if it makes a difference but the car was sitting (in storage) for 4 months before I changed the oil.

Is there any reason I should be concerned with Blackstone? I've always heard they were very reputable; which is why I used them in the first place. This is actually the first time I've sent out oil from one of my cars for analysis. I'm open to other recommendations...or are you just recommending that I get an analysis that includes TBN or TAN values?

-Eric

Flat6 Innovations

Based on what you posted I'd bet this engine is seeing elevated oil temperatures. I can tell this from some of the values in the UOA results.

I'd not ever use a service for UOA that does not give TBN or TAN levels, from my standpoint thats what we look at most to gauge both the wear metals, but also the possibilities of corrosive wear and how well the oil is holding up at a given service interval.

All of our oil goes back to the lab where it was formulated, at Lubrizol. In previous times we were most impressed with Stavely, but I haven't used them in several years.

I have never seen a Blackstone report that was objective enough, they like to put glitter on top of everything, even on samples that were sent in from engines that had already failed. I guess they figure since people can't handle the truth theres no use in telling them how it really is, or they really don't know.

Sue Esponte

If I recall correctly you can order TBN and TAN for a little extra. Not knowing better I didn't order it. Regardless of who I use in the future, I will order it if needed. For what it's worth the car SEEMS to run well. Oil pressure, at least from the OEM gauge, seems to be okay. Is there anything else i should be doing or looking out for from your perspective?

-Eric

Flat6 Innovations

All you can do is run a short service interval at 3K and do another UOA and watch for elevations.
The engine I linked above was totally symptomless and had no warning signs at all. The car was owned by the original purchaser and he started seeing elevated UOA that was increasing, so we went invasive, found worn lifters, bypassed oil that was material laden and then we went deeper and found worn bearings. The car ran the way it always had previously.

LexVan

Jake, you have posted some great info in this thread. Thank you.

Can you expand on your statement above? What exactly are you seeing, that allows you to reach this conclusion? Is it many item in totality or a few specific values? My guess is the low shear viscositiy at 210. Thanks.

mmahon04

All in all, interesting.

1) Without a dedicated oil temperature gauge, how does one know if they are getting elevated oil temperatures on a stock vehicle?
2) If the only way to do this is to add a sensor, where can a source be easily tapped? This question has been asked many times, but never seems to be satisfactorily answered.

soverystout

Might be time for a coolant flush, new water pump, low temp stat, clean the radiators, check for even the smallest coolant leaks, etc etc.

That's way too much metal regardless of who's standard you use.....

Sue Esponte

I got a new water pump last year. I'm hoping it came with new fluid. I haven't found any evidence of a leak anywhere. The front end radiators probably need a good cleaning though. It should reach 30K miles in the next few months and while I've changed the brake fluid and oil more frequently based on age (rather than mileage -- as did the prior owner from what I could tell), I've been told that the 30K mile maintenance check-up is fairly comprehensive.

-Eric