IMS/RMS/Clutch quote
#47
Rat Balls
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Scottsdale AZ, USA
Posts: 3,636
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Recently had IMS replaced with LNE upgrade, RMS, Clutch, PP, TO bearing, Flywheel, OA sep, water pump, low temp thermostat, reseal leaking oil pan. Oil and filter. ALL needed. 51k miles on the car. could have done most of the work myself but NO garage anymore. Total P&L $5300. Top Indy in area. Porsche dealer told me the had to split case and replace shaft. Problem started when I noticed small oil leak. Probably just RMS, leaked oil was pretty clean. clutch was shot and scored the flywheel, couldn't be turned. water pump was leaking. Bottom line I FEEL better having the IMS done, rest of work was necessary too.
#48
If it's not a hybrid, do they say what exactly is the improvement over the stock? I'm suspecting it's an off the shelf part (like the one Porsche uses for their single row) and you can find those at any bearing supply store for $20.
Alp, they claim it doesnt self-destruct like the OEM one because of the improved seals.
At this point I feel like the M96.04 is the Titanic and no matter what you do there is mode of failure #1 through #200. Not the whole car just the egnine. Not buying the TT I looked at was one of the stupidist things Ive done in awhile.
#49
I hope you don't have kids. "Having that kid was the dumbest thing I've done..."
#50
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Update....I have the "old" IMS bearing sitting on my desk. Today, I picked it up and held it real close to my ear and spun it slowly back and forth. Guess what? A slight gravely sound. How close was I to a disaster? As a non-professional, I don't know, but I do know that I'm glad I did the replacement. 2003 with 27K miles on the Odo.
#51
Update....I have the "old" IMS bearing sitting on my desk. Today, I picked it up and held it real close to my ear and spun it slowly back and forth. Guess what? A slight gravely sound. How close was I to a disaster? As a non-professional, I don't know, but I do know that I'm glad I did the replacement. 2003 with 27K miles on the Odo.
#52
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
^^^ That's correct, the ***** will be bouncing off the cage and it will sound like $hit. Add a tiny bit of oil or grease and it will quiet down. It's easy to scare people whem they don't know what normal is.
#53
Former Vendor
Price shopping this level of work is about the biggest mistake that someone can make. In the auto repair world cheap= fast and that means a total lack of pre and post procedure checks are done.
I am amazed when I instruct my classes that the people installing the IMS bearings are not removing the oil sump during the procedure. Everyone wants to race against a clock, which is fine if you are changing a starter, but not with an IMSR.
The IMSR requires an "engine building" mindset, which is why so many shops goof them up.
I am amazed when I instruct my classes that the people installing the IMS bearings are not removing the oil sump during the procedure. Everyone wants to race against a clock, which is fine if you are changing a starter, but not with an IMSR.
The IMSR requires an "engine building" mindset, which is why so many shops goof them up.
#54
JR, does that include if your replacing the IMSB as PM and there is no indication of any metal or seal fragments in oil, oil filter, or sump?? Do you mean just pull the pan and inspect anyway?
#55
Former Vendor
Absolutely! Assume nothing and quantify everything! Debris left in the oil system from any worn part will destroy the IMSR bearing in short order.
#56
Rennlist Member
Imre, mines a single row and the new Pelican bearing is supposed to be an improvement over the OEM single row. If they are now admitting that even the C/H bearing should be replaced at 40K to 50K, why bother with LN for $600 or Casper for $500? Both claim they will no longer sell to public anyway so who needs em? I will just replace mine every clutch job and enjoy doing it.
#57
Pelican still has some LNE's in stock but I would buy now if you need one. A source on Renntech says he can still get the Casper for now. Personally I just don't have the taste for their "mine is better" but " we wont sell you one" drama. I find it a little offensive that they think the IMSB is beyond the reach of a DIY'er and find their stingy sell attitude condescending and patronizing.
#58
IIRC, JR had already stated that he is having a distributor sell the retrofits. He's looking to get out of the consumer direct channel and I see nothing wrong with that. I'd rather see him using his time to finish his book and any further research rather than answering calls and providing end user support on remedial questions on installing the retrofit.
As for Casper, he's not really interested in taking a sales/support role and would prefer to play an engineering role from what I gather.
FWIW, when you have all these novices trying to tackle an intermediate to difficult procedure(partly due to cost and circumstance situations), you're bound to have some bad installations and eventually finger pointing in all the wrong directions. Not everyone is cut out to be a surgeon(utmost attention to detail) and I've seen many nurses in this hobby trying to act like one. My $.02
As for Casper, he's not really interested in taking a sales/support role and would prefer to play an engineering role from what I gather.
FWIW, when you have all these novices trying to tackle an intermediate to difficult procedure(partly due to cost and circumstance situations), you're bound to have some bad installations and eventually finger pointing in all the wrong directions. Not everyone is cut out to be a surgeon(utmost attention to detail) and I've seen many nurses in this hobby trying to act like one. My $.02
#59
Alp, I agree with most of that and it probably comes down to "these are your options for now" if you can still buy them:
Imre bearing $20 - $100
Pelican Improved OEM $165
Casper $325
LNE $650
F6I solution $3500+
At least there are options.
Imre bearing $20 - $100
Pelican Improved OEM $165
Casper $325
LNE $650
F6I solution $3500+
At least there are options.
Last edited by KrazyK; 04-03-2013 at 02:33 PM.
#60
Former Vendor
IIRC, JR had already stated that he is having a distributor sell the retrofits. He's looking to get out of the consumer direct channel and I see nothing wrong with that. I'd rather see him using his time to finish his book and any further research rather than answering calls and providing end user support on remedial questions on installing the retrofit.
As for Casper, he's not really interested in taking a sales/support role and would prefer to play an engineering role from what I gather.
FWIW, when you have all these novices trying to tackle an intermediate to difficult procedure(partly due to cost and circumstance situations), you're bound to have some bad installations and eventually finger pointing in all the wrong directions. Not everyone is cut out to be a surgeon(utmost attention to detail) and I've seen many nurses in this hobby trying to act like one. My $.02
As for Casper, he's not really interested in taking a sales/support role and would prefer to play an engineering role from what I gather.
FWIW, when you have all these novices trying to tackle an intermediate to difficult procedure(partly due to cost and circumstance situations), you're bound to have some bad installations and eventually finger pointing in all the wrong directions. Not everyone is cut out to be a surgeon(utmost attention to detail) and I've seen many nurses in this hobby trying to act like one. My $.02
You have to remember that the dialogue on forums in those days was much different, because the IMSR was a black art that was filled with urban legend about not even being mechanically possible. In those days if your engine just started to lose an IMSB it was doomed, because no one had a tool to extract it and no one had a bearing to replace it with. Hell for the first year people still didn't believe that it could be done and Porsche service advisors were still spreading "facts" that the bearing was non-servicable and could not be purchased.
My role with the IMS Solution is much different, because I invented it, so we are taking what we have learned with the IMSR and ensuring that it is not repeated with the IMS Solution. This means none will be sold for retail sale and each unit must be registered and each shop that carries out an install will receive a registration number. Each and every IMS Solution is also serialized and there will initially be 6 certified IMS Solution installers (placed strategically across North America) in the USA and Canada, all of which have been hand picked by Charles and I. Each of these certified installers will receive formal training on the entire procedure and will be required to pass an evaluation.
Other shops can buy the units from wholesalers, but they will not be certified.
This is what should have been employed with the IMSR to begin with, but the frenzy of shops and people wanting them didn't allow it. We learn from our mistakes. The IMS Solution is also for elective use only, and not to be used to repair an engine with a failed or failing IMSB.
What was the final blow in regard to retail IMSB sales was an installer that became vocal on a forum after HE made a mistake and then stated that the "bearing failed during install" when that didn't happen. He made a huge deal out of it, called LN and disrespected every employee there and even Charles.
The IMSR process is not hard, but it requires a methodical approach with attention to detail. It also requires mechanical inclination at a level thats much greater than what I see with today's technicians. Through my classes I made contact with over 400 technicians all across the continent last year and the majority of them simply do not have what it takes to carry out this level of work, even after attending the class. They are so attuned with diagnostic scan tools doing all their work for them, that the days of actually having human intervention solve a mechanical problem is pretty much gone. When I look out across a class people are just dumbfounded and I sometimes simply stop and ask if anyone understands any of it. In a classroom of 40 attendees I might have 3-4 people that actually "get it". Thats whats causing problems today.
I have become completely disinterested with selling anything other than a complete engine and I don't even trust any other shop to install them and thats why I have cars here from 18 states and two Canadian provinces today.
Anyway, rant off.... Nothing will be perfect, but if these jobs are not done thoroughly and without a deadline the retrofit will fail and guess where the finger points? You got it.