2000 996 Cab - new top Twillfast?
03-12-2013, 01:53 PM
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2000 996 Cab - new top Twillfast?
I have the standard delamination of the rear window on my 2000 996 cab.
I just spoke to a local top guy and he suggested replacing the whole top with "FSG Twillfast" which he described as the same German canvas as GAHH without the label.
The price quoted was $1,300 ($750 for canvas & $550) for installation.
Has anyone used Twillfast? any opinions are appreciated. I know I can get the GAHH for about $900 and he'll still do the $550 for the install. I'm just wondering if it's worth it.
I just spoke to a local top guy and he suggested replacing the whole top with "FSG Twillfast" which he described as the same German canvas as GAHH without the label.
The price quoted was $1,300 ($750 for canvas & $550) for installation.
Has anyone used Twillfast? any opinions are appreciated. I know I can get the GAHH for about $900 and he'll still do the $550 for the install. I'm just wondering if it's worth it.
03-12-2013, 06:39 PM
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I guess I'll have to hunt around more. Both places I called said to take the top off for the repair is the same labor and not surpisingly they discouraged it. I've read allot of posts on the subject and the new top vs. re-sewn window, opinions vary. If I could get it sewn for $200, I'd do that in a second.
I also saw some links to Autotops direct for German A5 canvas which is supposedly the same as GAHH yet 1/2 the price. http://www.autotopsdirect.com/category-s/638.htm
I've had the car a week now and I'm over 4K into it, this is the same car I told my wife needed nothing....might be driving around with the delaminated window for a little while longer! (car is garaged)
Having two boats I told her I'd sell one and get the car and save us allot money (yes I knew it was a lie) but I'm finding out these P cars are nearly as bad as boats.
I also saw some links to Autotops direct for German A5 canvas which is supposedly the same as GAHH yet 1/2 the price. http://www.autotopsdirect.com/category-s/638.htm
I've had the car a week now and I'm over 4K into it, this is the same car I told my wife needed nothing....might be driving around with the delaminated window for a little while longer! (car is garaged)
Having two boats I told her I'd sell one and get the car and save us allot money (yes I knew it was a lie) but I'm finding out these P cars are nearly as bad as boats.
03-12-2013, 06:40 PM
#5
LI911 - I'm on Long Island (RVC) as well and my 2000 Cab has the same problem. If you don't mind, can you tell me which company gave you the quote? I've read that the going rate is about $700 labor for installing a new top or repairing the window, which also requires removal of the top.
I've also heard (but can't verify) that it's best to have someone with Porsche experience/tools do the job as recalibration of the top is required.
I repaired my plastic window myself just to get through the summer last year, but it's not an ideal solution.
About P cars being as bad as boats - as a boat owner I would say no. You've just experienced some bad timing with your Porsche purchase. This is the first problem I've had with mine. Don't forget, that the top is about 13 years old.
I've also heard (but can't verify) that it's best to have someone with Porsche experience/tools do the job as recalibration of the top is required.
I repaired my plastic window myself just to get through the summer last year, but it's not an ideal solution.
About P cars being as bad as boats - as a boat owner I would say no. You've just experienced some bad timing with your Porsche purchase. This is the first problem I've had with mine. Don't forget, that the top is about 13 years old.
03-12-2013, 06:56 PM
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Sure, the place is called Stingray County in Port Jefferson Station. He has a bunch of pics on his facebook site if you do a search. It looks like he started the business a couple of years ago (I could be wrong). I haven't been to his shop and can't vouch for his experience. I'd probably be taking a risk verses the more well known shops on LI, he sent me one pick of a Porsche he did, so that could be his only one.
03-12-2013, 06:59 PM
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Maybe we can look for a combined deal. I'll ask around.
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03-13-2013, 08:42 PM
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I did some more research today and ended up on a Mercedes Forum. I cut and pasted 3 posts off their board. Hopefully this will be useful information for other P owners looking at widely varying prices on tops:
Here's the last instalment. I hope all this research will be of some help. I've had enough of it...
There's many soft-top manufacturers and resellers, I did not research them all.
Most practice what we call in French "flou artistique" in their statements, an artistical somewhat out-of-focus form of speech. Like calling the fabric "German, "factory", or saying "first-grade" plastic windows, etc. If you look up the sites, this form of speech is practiced by most, from the cheapest to the most expensive.
A cat is a cat, and a dog a dog.
There is only one replication, and only one, of the original OEM R107 fabric. It's called "Sonnenland Classic" made by Haartz. It's a two fiber weave (cotton-polyester I think) and too expensive-marginal to bother to copy as is.
There are fakes. Some are good, but should be stated as such, and sold at a much lower price.
There is currently a better fabric, the post-1994 or so Twillfast-Sonnenland A5 (Twillfast is the name used for US cars, Sonnenland for Euros), which has a black-only dobby backing ie a black-only correct pattern inner lining. Reputedlly, this lasts longer than Sonnenland Classic.
The regular Twillfast with correct brown dobby is also reputed excellent.
Sonnenland Classic is reputed to look nicer than Twillfast.
I'm of the opinion that both Sonnenland Classic and Twillfast will last a long time, most probably so than the plastic windows. So, it's between price and looks for the outer fabric.
Only one supplier confirmed that he used a high-quality brand-name plastic for his windows: ARO 2000. I think that this is a decisive factor: many fabric tops can be seen to be in VGC but for their windows.
ARO 2000 uses "Ultralite" by O'Sullivan USA and swear by it. It's a product used by car manufacturers, not only aftermarket. OK, but it seems that Bayer Flexglas 9120 (I think, the one used on BMW Z8s) is better and suppliers should do some research.
So, do business with whoever you want, but before you order, have it confirmed of what, EXACTLY, your top is made of. "German" and "high-quality" is not enough.
My personal choice...
I hesitated between ARO and Prestige tops.
Unfortunately, I asked, no begged, for Prestige to confirm fabric and plastic used. They declined to name the products they use. Note that I stated in a previous report that they used Bayer et al. Flexglas (r) for their windows. That's before I discovered that Flexglas is like Kleenex, a brand name used to describe similar products. I asked Prestige to confirm they used Bayer et al. Flexglas(r) -an excellent product- and they declined. Too bad, because they did seem more thanOK, at a great price. But if they deem their clients unworthy of info, so be it.
In the end, only ARO 2000 provided complete, precise information about their product. Mr. Georgi answered each and every of my questions. They get my vote, and they'll get my money.
In closing:
1-you other soft-top suppliers, wake up and inform us consumers.
2- If you want to charge us more than 30-50% the average, tell us why EXACTLY.
I'll keep you posted on my purchase and install of the ARO top, but it'll be awhile, it's winter for still two more months here in the Great Whit North.
To <username>, Stayfast is a pefectly good fabric, some come with the dobby liner, not as good as Twillfast or Sonnenland. You should use Sonnenland if you want the real look.
Personnally, I don't think that good brand-name fabrics will deteriorate very quickly: the windows will go first. Double-check that they use brand-name plastic for the windows. If they won't say, don't buy.
To <username>: some top manufacturers use computers for patterning and cutting, use Sonnenland fabric, excellent quality windows, real dobby lining, poly stitching with HF fusing, and sell for less than 500.00
Others do presumably the same, but do not say so, and charge double. Others, while not outright lying, are so imprecise that anything goes.
The top business is a quagmire.
GAHH has an excellent reputation, but there is not sufficiently precise info to justify the price premium
________________________________________________________________________ _________
I hope this is my last post on the subject.
I received an email from a French supplier who doesn't give a flying f*ck about the North American market.
Here's what he says: there is Haartz "Sonnenland Classic" as the best fabric, that's it that's all. Anything that is not described as being "Sonnenland Classic" by name could be a Turkish-Polish what have you copy that is or is not of as good quality, you can know for some by touching, others you cannot. These fabrics must be sold at a very serious discount compared to Sonnenland Classic, a very serious discount.
He also told me that the current iterations of Sonnenland Classic such as Sonnenland 5, Twillfast II, etc., are too stiff for R107 tops.
So there you go, don't buy "German", "OEM", buy the real stuff. It's no more expensive
Here's the last instalment. I hope all this research will be of some help. I've had enough of it...
There's many soft-top manufacturers and resellers, I did not research them all.
Most practice what we call in French "flou artistique" in their statements, an artistical somewhat out-of-focus form of speech. Like calling the fabric "German, "factory", or saying "first-grade" plastic windows, etc. If you look up the sites, this form of speech is practiced by most, from the cheapest to the most expensive.
A cat is a cat, and a dog a dog.
There is only one replication, and only one, of the original OEM R107 fabric. It's called "Sonnenland Classic" made by Haartz. It's a two fiber weave (cotton-polyester I think) and too expensive-marginal to bother to copy as is.
There are fakes. Some are good, but should be stated as such, and sold at a much lower price.
There is currently a better fabric, the post-1994 or so Twillfast-Sonnenland A5 (Twillfast is the name used for US cars, Sonnenland for Euros), which has a black-only dobby backing ie a black-only correct pattern inner lining. Reputedlly, this lasts longer than Sonnenland Classic.
The regular Twillfast with correct brown dobby is also reputed excellent.
Sonnenland Classic is reputed to look nicer than Twillfast.
I'm of the opinion that both Sonnenland Classic and Twillfast will last a long time, most probably so than the plastic windows. So, it's between price and looks for the outer fabric.
Only one supplier confirmed that he used a high-quality brand-name plastic for his windows: ARO 2000. I think that this is a decisive factor: many fabric tops can be seen to be in VGC but for their windows.
ARO 2000 uses "Ultralite" by O'Sullivan USA and swear by it. It's a product used by car manufacturers, not only aftermarket. OK, but it seems that Bayer Flexglas 9120 (I think, the one used on BMW Z8s) is better and suppliers should do some research.
So, do business with whoever you want, but before you order, have it confirmed of what, EXACTLY, your top is made of. "German" and "high-quality" is not enough.
My personal choice...
I hesitated between ARO and Prestige tops.
Unfortunately, I asked, no begged, for Prestige to confirm fabric and plastic used. They declined to name the products they use. Note that I stated in a previous report that they used Bayer et al. Flexglas (r) for their windows. That's before I discovered that Flexglas is like Kleenex, a brand name used to describe similar products. I asked Prestige to confirm they used Bayer et al. Flexglas(r) -an excellent product- and they declined. Too bad, because they did seem more thanOK, at a great price. But if they deem their clients unworthy of info, so be it.
In the end, only ARO 2000 provided complete, precise information about their product. Mr. Georgi answered each and every of my questions. They get my vote, and they'll get my money.
In closing:
1-you other soft-top suppliers, wake up and inform us consumers.
2- If you want to charge us more than 30-50% the average, tell us why EXACTLY.
I'll keep you posted on my purchase and install of the ARO top, but it'll be awhile, it's winter for still two more months here in the Great Whit North.
To <username>, Stayfast is a pefectly good fabric, some come with the dobby liner, not as good as Twillfast or Sonnenland. You should use Sonnenland if you want the real look.
Personnally, I don't think that good brand-name fabrics will deteriorate very quickly: the windows will go first. Double-check that they use brand-name plastic for the windows. If they won't say, don't buy.
To <username>: some top manufacturers use computers for patterning and cutting, use Sonnenland fabric, excellent quality windows, real dobby lining, poly stitching with HF fusing, and sell for less than 500.00
Others do presumably the same, but do not say so, and charge double. Others, while not outright lying, are so imprecise that anything goes.
The top business is a quagmire.
GAHH has an excellent reputation, but there is not sufficiently precise info to justify the price premium
________________________________________________________________________ _________
I hope this is my last post on the subject.
I received an email from a French supplier who doesn't give a flying f*ck about the North American market.
Here's what he says: there is Haartz "Sonnenland Classic" as the best fabric, that's it that's all. Anything that is not described as being "Sonnenland Classic" by name could be a Turkish-Polish what have you copy that is or is not of as good quality, you can know for some by touching, others you cannot. These fabrics must be sold at a very serious discount compared to Sonnenland Classic, a very serious discount.
He also told me that the current iterations of Sonnenland Classic such as Sonnenland 5, Twillfast II, etc., are too stiff for R107 tops.
So there you go, don't buy "German", "OEM", buy the real stuff. It's no more expensive
03-13-2013, 09:45 PM
#11
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According to the producer's site, the fabric is OEM equipped on the Audi TT, Alfa Spider, BMW 3, 6, and Z4, Mini, Chrysler PT and Sebring, Ferrari F430 and F360, Mustang, and Rolls Royce, so the fabric has some cred in my opinion.
Is he producing the top himself? Haartz (the Twillfast mfr) doesn't make tops, just fabric.
If the work is quality and he has references, and you like what he makes, I'd consider it. If it's not, he doesn't, and/or you don't, I'd order the GAHH.
This is with the caveat that I prefer to throw money at a local/neighborhood craftsman whenever possible - if I can pay someone local and keep the money local, I'm going to go that way. If you don't have this inclination, the GAHH is probably the logical choice.
Is he producing the top himself? Haartz (the Twillfast mfr) doesn't make tops, just fabric.
If the work is quality and he has references, and you like what he makes, I'd consider it. If it's not, he doesn't, and/or you don't, I'd order the GAHH.
This is with the caveat that I prefer to throw money at a local/neighborhood craftsman whenever possible - if I can pay someone local and keep the money local, I'm going to go that way. If you don't have this inclination, the GAHH is probably the logical choice.
03-15-2013, 06:48 PM
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03-15-2013, 08:05 PM
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I guess I'll have to hunt around more. Both places I called said to take the top off for the repair is the same labor and not surprisingly they discouraged it. I've read allot of posts on the subject and the new top vs. re-sewn window, opinions vary. If I could get it sewn for $200, I'd do that in a second....
I had them re-sew the top, and yes, they had to remove it to do it right, but they said they do this all the time as the de-lamination is common on 996s. This was about 5 years ago, so my prices might be skewed, but it still beat the cost of a new top.
Good luck.