Ahsai

My used oil (5k miles) has ~25 ppm copper and ~18 ppm iron. Jake's expert opinion is that the rod bearings have been compromised. See https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ferrerid=32590.

The car has 50k miles with oil change every 5k miles. Very well maintained and driven. Currently no symptoms and no oil leak. Engine feels smooth and strong.

Now obviously I'm not going to tear the engine apart at this point. My current plan is to try the following to slow down the wear, if possible.

1) JG break in oil + DT40
2) LN full flow oil filter adaptor
3) Filtermag
4) Oil change every 3k

I'm considering doing the above in stages so I can tell the difference of each change. However, Even though my car is a DD, I only put about 5k miles on it so the next oil change will be a year from now. That will take a few years to try all of the above.

Any other things you can think of that I should try?

kromdom

IMS Guardian?

P.S. What did JR recommend?

Ahsai

I view that as something independent of the situation I'm trying to improve. IMS risk mitigation will need its own assessment. I must admit it's a big let down to me to see premature wear despite all the proactive and fequent maintenance.

These engines have 20+ modes of failure per Jake so really not sure what bandages to put on and how much more to invest....

Ahsai

His recommendation so far is to find a good local mechanic, although not clear if he meant to check out the car or just to maintain the car...

Sneaky Pete

Couldn't you have just continued on with your other thread? There was good info there that brought your story full circle.

Ahsai

Hi Pete,

Yea I probably could have. However, I wanted this thread to focus on remedy because that's what will be useful to me at this point. The other thread is more about general info and diagnosis.

Macster

Hard to imagine the oil breaking down to the point some bearing metal (or valve guide metal IIRC it is bronze) appears in the oil and the engine sounds fine and runs fine. If there was any appreciable wear at the rod bearings I think you'd hear it. Valve guide wear maybe you'd hear it maybe not.

5K mile oil/filter changes is good. So it is hard for me to imagine how the oil is breaking down unless those 5K miles are racked up with itty bitty trips that have the oil loaded in no time with excessive water and unburned fuel.

In this case, the UOA should show this. So what is the water content from the UOA?

And what was the oil's viscosity?

If the water content was low and apparently this wasn't flagged by the UOA report and the viscosity is within the acceptable range and this wasn't flagged by the UOA report then I have to believe you inadvertently captured some particularly dirty oil unrepresentative of the engine's oil as a whole.

Maybe you didn't contaminate the oil? Maybe you just had the oil analyzed after the 5K mile oil sat in the engine a while and as it did so being acidic this resulted in a larger than normal amount of copper and iron in the oil. All the UOA tells you is what in this case metals are in the oil, and how much metal is in the oil, not how tht metal got in the oil. From metal to metal contact or from the violence of the oil under extreme pressure plucking metal grains from metal surfaces that have been etched/weakened by the corrosive effects of acidic oil.

However, unless there is other readings from the oil analysis that could at least partially confirm the oil was just past its change by date due to excessive water/unburned fuel build up along with acid build up then I'm going with you grabbed a dirty sample.

So, you could do an oil/filter change then run the engine say 500 miles and pull another oil sample and this time take extra care to get a clean sample that you are sure is presentative of the oil as a whole and have it analyzed and see what the report has to say.

Before you run the engine another 500 miles with fresh oil in it you might, if you want to go to the trouble, you might consider actually having the hot oil pressure measured.

If you want to pursue this some, Porsche calls out a hot oil pressure at high rpms, I forget the number, but it is something in the region of 5K rpms and 5 bar.

Before I did anything more than just an oil/filter change I'd consider having the hot oil pressure tested.

If it is ok... false alarm. As I touched upon above, if one is not careful aware of what he is doing one can contaminate the oil sample or get some particularly nasty oil that inflates the metal readings.

If the oil pressure is low I'd be skeptical just about anything outside of the engine you could do would help.

A thicker oil might help but you hear no noise so how can you tell the thicker oil helps? And the thicker oil might prove unsuitable for the healthy bearings with tighter clearances. So you give the worn bearings an extension on their life at the expense of the healthy bearings and other critical interfaces/fits in the engine.

All that break in oil combined with some super duper magical oil dour jour (I guess the web is fixing on this JT oil for now) sounds a bit silly. But of course I have no Porsche engine credentials and my oil selection methodology consists of letting the dealer service tech fill the engine from the tank of Mobil 1 0w-40 oil in the back room of the service department so what do I know?

Anyhow, if the engine is really tearing at the bearings and if you believe what you listed above would alleviate this wear I'd do all the above with no delay provided you are comfortable with a non approved oil in the engine and 3K mile oil/filter changes. And to leave no stone unturned, adding a rabbit's foot to your keychain.

Ok, so if bearings are really wearing and you choose the ineffective thing to do first the engine may not last another 5K miles.

Might point out the real reason for the lowering the metal in the oil would be the 3K mile oil/filter services. The oil is changed before the acid build up -- if this what is happening -- gets too bad and the UOA numbers look better and everyone is happy. You might however get the same result by just doing what you've been doing but changing the oil every 3K miles instead of 5K miles.

Also, I have to say this... you have a nice car with no symptoms with 50K miles backed with reasonably good service and you are going to stop doing what you've been doing and do something else based on what again?

Ahsai

Hi Macster, thanks for the very detailed and well thought out reply. Please see my UOA here 2013-02-02 oil report edited.pdf. Everything checks out except copper and iron (water content is 0.0, TBN is 6.7). Note there are two reports here, each covering 5k miles (1yr apart) so this has been going on for 2 yrs, at least. The car is my DD ~20 miles/day driven fully warmed up. Engine always warmed up and never lugged. Oil pressure is 1.5 bar @idle after engine fully warmed up and never lower than that.

The oil sample was collected straight from the drain hole in mid-air without touching the oil pan. The sample was collected midway during the drain so the initial gush and the end of the drain were skipped. Since both UOAs showed similar copper and iron levels, I have no reason to suspect bad samples.

I understand your comment about changing my oil choice because of these UOA. Frankly, I do NOT like non-OE stuff on my car unless they function better than the originals, anything from fluid to parts. However, in this case my thinking so far is my iron/copper levels are really a lot higher than most so it seems to be worth doing something to at least slow down the wear. All engines wear and it's just a matter of time when they die. The point is in what time frame. BTW, I'm aware of copper leaching and I certiainly hope that's the case but that doesn't explain why it happens only to my car but not others.

There's not much I can do other than improving the lubrication. Regarding DT40, I'm after the higher ZDDP although Motul already has 1,000+ ZDDP already. Also, if Jake is putting his own reputation on it, the oil cannot be junk. I do not have too much to loose by trying it and doing UOA to verify the results. If it reduces my copper/iron level significantly, I 'll keep using it. If not, I can always go back to Motul. Same logic applies to the full-flow filter. All these are reversible mods. Another possiblity is to try is Motul + full-flow filter first if I want P-approved oil.

Having said that, I'm very tempted to do nothing and just keep doing UOAs. Please share any more insights you have. Thanks!

Ahsai

Come to think about it more, Macster. I like your idea about doing a UOA at 3k. That will give me one more important data point to consider before making significant changes.

Sneaky Pete

Bingo....

alpine003

+996, I would wait for one more sample just to make sure it wasn't a fluke.

KrazyK

Ahsai, I agree with the flush, then DT40, then analysis, but I would not wait one year. If I were that concerned then I would try an analysis at 1K intervals just to see whats going on. Either way looks like your at least trying to catch the problem (if there is one) before it grenades the engine.

Dont be discouraged, some people here really enjoy disagreeing with JR which makes no sense to me. Sometimes Im not sure if their kidding or not. I do however respect everyones opinion, especially the ones that are not "arm chair mechanics". Weigh the options and do what you think best because your paying the bills.

Ahsai

Macster, forgot to ask the above. My oil pressure (indicated by the gauge in the instrument cluster) is 3 bar@2k, 4bar@3k, 4.5bar@4k, and close to 5bar@5k.

BTW, I just thought of another potential option. To change to a slightly thicker approved oil - Mobil 1 5w-50, higher ZDDP and much higher Molybdenum. What do you think?

Ahsai

Thanks, Krazy. I understand where Pete and Macster are coming from and had expected their response. Their comments are in good faith as a reminder to me to avoid any knee jerk reaction like i think the sky is falling. So I do appreciate their responses.

I'm just concerned and not panicking for sure and am currently evaluating the next step carefully and logically (hence this thread).

Two FACTS that stand out:
1) My copper/iron level are indeed double the average
2) I collected the samples carefully and their readings are consistent for 2 yrs.

I think the best option so far like you and Macster said would be to get another UOA earlier than 5k. I think I'll just do it in 3k (in about half a yr) and see what happens.

San Rensho

I would also pull the sump plate and see if there is anything in there, then give it a good cleaning.

You might want to try a couple of low mileage oil changes. When I got my Box, iron 34 ppm, was through the roof on M1 at about 9k miles. I did a couple of flush oil changes, for about 1k miles each, then regular changes at 3k miles and the iron is down to around 7-9 ppm.