Quix

Three years ago I bought my 2002 C4 Cab from an engineer who had meticulously cared for it. It had 42K miles on it. At 52K, 18 months ago, I had the LN Engineering IMS bearing replacement (single row for this car). The original bearing had lost its seal and was being lubricated by engine oil, but was still intact and working well. The car has never been tracked, nor stored. It has been driven regularly since I got it, nearly a daily driver. It now has 69K miles on the odometer. On Monday I had it at the dealer to have the transmission fluid changed (slight whine in 2nd and 3rd gears) and an oil change. It seemed to be taking a long time, and at 15 minutes to closing the Service Advisor called me with the bad news that they had found metal fragments in my oil. After some frantic emails, the LNE and Flat6 folks feel that it can’t possibly be the new IMSB, and I think they’ve got a point as the bearings are ceramic (although the races are steel). The Flat6 folks have weighed in to say that it’s likely a cam lobe or lifter. The fragments are ferrous, picked up by a magnet. Below is a pic of the fragments on the inside of the oil filter.

I’m looking for help as to what to do next. The car still runs and looks fine, though I’m afraid to drive it much. I’m not the sort who can just drive it to an unsuspecting dealer and trade it in. Karma’s a bitch. I’ve got it parked at the indy who put in the bearing, and am told that replacing the cams is “silly money” meaning lots. I don’t know whether to have them drop the transmission and pull the LN IMSB, which would then have to be replaced whether it’s the source of the metal fragments or not, or to have them pull off the cam covers and look there first. The LN folks have also said that since the bearing has been exposed to metal fragments that it’s possible it could fail subsequently, even if it’s not the cause of the trouble. The other option is to trade it back to the Porsche dealer, and they have expressed some willingness to do so although I’m not sure what the trade-in value should or would be. The sad thing is that I’ve treated this car better than I’ve ever treated a car, and have done absolutely everything to avoid just this situation. Suggestions or ideas about what might be the source and how to go about finding out? Or should I just bail? I was really hoping to drive this car for a few more years, but I'm not so attached that I'll spend anything to fix it no matter what. Thanks in advance.

speed rII

Tell them to drop the oilpan and check if there is some debries.

That doesn't look too bad to me.
I would clean the oilpan and drive 5k with new filter and oil, then check the filter again.

Hurdigurdiman

+1

Quix

A detail I forgot to mention:
There was a OBD code thrown that they describe as "in the past but not occurring now." The code is "P1325 Bank 2 Camshaft Adjustment" and they are thinking that it may be due to debris blocking a sensor then washing away later.

KNS

I disagree, we're looking at just ten pleats in that filter out of how many pleats total? How long has that filter been in there?

philooo

There is a big debate on very small flakes of that size, most seems to say it is not a big deal.

I agree on removing the oil pan, that is surely your next step. It is not a big job and you need to see if something bigger is in there.

We have heard a lot about rod bearing failure. I wonder if those flakes could be it ?

Lifter or camshaft problem... I have never seen it on the forum but if LN and Flat6 have given you their feedback and considering they have nothing to sell you at this time, I would consider their suggestion.
At least lifter or cam problem will not cause terminal failure.

Quadcammer

If a cam seizes in the journal, you better believe you could have a terminal failure.

soverystout

How long on the oil and filter? I would definately drop the pan first to see what is what. If the pan has never been dropped before expect to see some metal shavings, some that may be involved in your issue, and some that have nothing to do with your issue are are merely from the engine manufacturing process.

Macster

Has the oil/filter been changed since the bearing upgrade? I would hope so based on the miles but I'm just asking. (The reason I bring this up is after any engine is opened even for something like a bearing upgrade this can result in a spike in trash in the oil filter.)

The ferrous metal bits in the oil filter are on the surface scary but they may not be a sign of pending doom.

First I assume the engine is quiet and running ok?

No ticks, knocks or other noises that keep time with the engine speed?

The camshaft timing error on bank 2 could be a sign the trouble, if there is any trouble, is on that bank. More on this below.

What would I do?....

Well, if you drop the pan you may find scary bits of metal but they could have been there since day one. A new engine sheds metal trash and the bigger pieces end up at the bottom of the engine. In fact, this is where the metal in the filter might have come from.

The oil sloshes around and moves the metal bits around and one just happens to get under the oil intake pipe opening. The mesh is not that fine and a fragment of metal is sucked up and of course goes through the oil pump and ends up in the filter.

So you drop the pan and find metal but you have no way of knowing if the metal is fresh or from day one. So I'd be inclined to leave the oil pan alone.

I guess at this point what I'd do is with fresh oil and a new filter installed start the engine and let it run a while. Chances are it has already been run as part of the oil change service.

Let the engine idle to nearly warm. Stay close to the car/engine. If at the first sign of distress shut off the engine. I do not expect this but better safe than sorry.

Now at the same time the engine is running if the car is in the air on a lift and you and a tech or two is under the car with a stethoscope giving the various engines areas a listen to out of the ordinary all the better use of your time and that of the engine running.

After the engine has run a while shut it off and remove the filter housing and carefully pour the oil/filter element into a *clean* drain pain.

If the oil and filter element come out free of metal bits this suggests the previous metal found is or was a fluke.

If you find more metal bits there's likely a problem. In this case then the first place I'd suspect is the #2 cylinder bank. Something associated with it.

Now if the camshaft error comes back or any any error related to VarioCam operation, in fact any error at all other than one caused by leaving the gas cap loose, that's a tip of the scales towards there being (possibly) more serious things wrong.

In this case, it might be worth the expense to have the camshaft cover of the #2 cylinder bank removed and the hardware inspected for any signs of trouble.

TomF

+1

chsu74

+1

Byprodriver

+1 on this except I would be checking the filter every 1000 miles! You don't have to replace it unless it has metal in it.
You should have the camshaft timing deviation checked also. Every engine I have disassembled looks like new inside except the camshaft journal areas have some unusual wear. This suggests to me that when oil lubrication is suboptimal the cam journals are the 1st place to see it. If you follow Porsches recommendation & change your Mobil 1 0W/40 oil at 15,000 miles that is false economy. Better oil changed every 5,000 is cheaper in the long run.

Quix

This is the third oil change since the bearing replacement. The first two were each after 5K miles, and I perhaps foolishly listened to the Porsche dealer Service Advisor when he assured me that changing the oil every 10K was ok. I got nervous at around 6-7K and brought it in for the change this past Monday. It runs well and quietly (too much so if you ask me) other than what I've noted below.

The car does have a short stumble at cold startup. Coils and plugs were replaced with no change. I've seen several others chase this to the ends of the earth on this forum, and since it's a momentary problem and goes away after a few seconds, I've decided to let it be.

I've recently posted about a very high-pitched whine at startup. The dealer thought that this was the air pump that regulates the temp of of the catalytic converters. I've priced out a replacement from Bosch at $600 but haven't pulled the trigger yet.

The only other significant thing is that on three occasions recently with cold start, I've heard a strange sound. It lasts about a second and is a metallic screeching sound. I've tried to think what it sounds like, and the best I can do is to tell you that it sounds like a metallic version of Maria Sharapova's scream when she hits a tennis ball. It was the same duration and pitch. You only have to watch the first 10 seconds of the video to get the idea. No, Maria was not in my car when I heard this...again this has only occurred three times.

WalterRohrl

The startup noise is the Air Pump, the screeching noise (kind of like a saw blade?) is it beginning to fail apparently. The Porsche part is over $1400, the exact same part in a Bosch Box is around $300 from I believe it is Pelican Parts. If not them, then someone else, but it is well under $600. It's in another recent post here, my car is making a similar noise.

Byprodriver

I've heard the SAI pump case bolts can loosen, might be worth a check.