Any one know WHEN the solution will be ..
01-10-2013, 09:39 AM
#61
Three Wheelin'
Plus, customer service and communications from Flat 6 has been nothing but 5 stars. People may not realize that Flat 6 also offers Porsche service for all of your repair needs. They are my indy of choice.
01-10-2013, 10:14 AM
#62
Nordschleife Master
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Guelph, Ontario, Canada
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I have been educated. You can get a provisional patent for 12 months by just submitting an application. After 12 months it expires, though, and unless you have applied for a patent by then it ceases to protect intellectual property.
01-10-2013, 12:26 PM
#64
Nordschleife Master
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Imre's is ceramic. Well the ***** at least. No need for ceramic race as the ***** are the primary wear feature in the bearing. And his was around 100$ shipped
01-10-2013, 02:59 PM
#65
Former Vendor
This will surely cause the price of a ceramic/hybrid or plain IMS bearing to fall? I think a plain replacement bearing is $165 now. Will the ceramics come down soon?
As I had stated, my original intent of this product was to apply it only to my engines. Thats the same intent that I had for the DT40 Joe Gibbs oil product.
01-10-2013, 07:54 PM
#66
Jake, so now your saying the "solution" will only be on cars you repair? Wouldnt there just be 3 choices for the customer now?
replacement bearing @$165
LNE @$650
Solution @$1500+
replacement bearing @$165
LNE @$650
Solution @$1500+
01-10-2013, 08:14 PM
#67
Former Vendor
Jake, so now your saying the "solution" will only be on cars you repair?
When originally invented the IMS Solution was only intended to be applied to my engines. At that time that was no big deal, because our only competitor was Porsche; there were no other engine solutions and no one else was crazy enough to touch the internals of the M96.
Back then, we didn't care about anything else, or shops doing the work, because no one else was doing anything. At that point the IMS bearing was thought impossible to be removed and if your IMS bearing even started to fail, the engine was toast. Remember, even 4 years ago most people did not think that an IMS retrofit could be carried out. For many years the M96 was considered disposable and not rebuildable, but LN and I were on this from day one.
Lots has changed since then, to say the least. Now IMS Retrofits are standard procedure and when I instruct my M96 Engine Mechanical Classes to 35-50 technicians all over North America I generally only have 4-5 attendees that raise their hand and state that they have not carried out a retrofit procedure.
Wouldnt there just be 3 choices for the customer now?
replacement bearing @$165
LNE @$650
Solution @$1500+
replacement bearing @$165
LNE @$650
Solution @$1500+
I have my own engine program where we develop products to create those engines and our products are always used there first and foremost. The components trickle down from there and get into the rest of the industry, thats how we were carrying out IMS retrofits for more than a year before anyone else, because I developed the procedure and I built the extraction tool.
At any rate, if your Indy sources parts from SSF Auto Parts they will have the ability to order the solution in summer 2013, as we are currently making the production run to fill the SSF order. SSF distributes parts to Porsche shops all across the USA and they currently stock the IMSR standard retrofit bearings.
If you wanted an IMS Solution installed tomorrow, my facility is the only place you could achieve that, but you would have had to be on our schedule two months ago :-)
01-14-2013, 12:39 PM
#68
Thanks to 69gaugeman for explaining on what he deems as a potential flaw in the solution. With his permission, I'm quoting his explanation for all to see and discuss in a civilized manner(I hope). Please let's try to keep this on focus by addressing the design only and keep the mudslinging out.
Jake,
Based on this explanation, can you explain if there are any chances for oiling deficiencies to occur. If minimal and with the type of metal used, would this holdup to a "lifetime" of wear without any adverse affects?
Would there be any chances of seeing metal to metal contact, especially at startup where there is minimal oil flow? And if so, what would be the long term effects?
TIA
Originally Posted by 69gaugeman
"I do have a lot of insight into this as I am an engineer in the auto parts industry and for the last 6 years have worked making shafts for transmissions. Subjected to the same types of loads and stresses.
Being immersed in this type of shaft manufacture, gives one some insight.
So just because I believe in the community concept, and I am not looking to get rich by overcharging for something just because I can, I will lay out the flaw. If I come across another instance where my solution (THE solution) would warrant making more of these I will have some made and the cost will not be $1500.00.
The 'flaw' in the design shown, is the oil grooves in the aluminum part. These grooves run laterally across the face of the bore and provide two failure points. The first one is that the grooves are too wide and too deep and unless you get an incredible amount of fluid flow the hydrodynamic film that holds the shaft away from the aluminum fails to do so at that point. You see, in all plain bushings there is actually NO contact between metal on the two surfaces. They actually 'float' apart on a fluid held in place with hydrodynamic force (the details of which I won't get into as it's quite complicated). The second is where the grooves cross the shaft, they actually 'shave off the oil at low speed (start up).
I suspect that they also didn't take into consideration what type of aluminum to use to minimize the wear due to the start up condition. By the way there is a reason why they use bushings in the con rods.
So having said all that, lets assume they get enough oil flow to maintain a film. Where does that flow come from? What happens when that flow momentarily drops? If this is getting a lot of flow, what isn't?
There is more to it, and they are not the sole holders of the knowledge of how things work. They are, however, masters at spreading fear and not divulging information."
Being immersed in this type of shaft manufacture, gives one some insight.
So just because I believe in the community concept, and I am not looking to get rich by overcharging for something just because I can, I will lay out the flaw. If I come across another instance where my solution (THE solution) would warrant making more of these I will have some made and the cost will not be $1500.00.
The 'flaw' in the design shown, is the oil grooves in the aluminum part. These grooves run laterally across the face of the bore and provide two failure points. The first one is that the grooves are too wide and too deep and unless you get an incredible amount of fluid flow the hydrodynamic film that holds the shaft away from the aluminum fails to do so at that point. You see, in all plain bushings there is actually NO contact between metal on the two surfaces. They actually 'float' apart on a fluid held in place with hydrodynamic force (the details of which I won't get into as it's quite complicated). The second is where the grooves cross the shaft, they actually 'shave off the oil at low speed (start up).
I suspect that they also didn't take into consideration what type of aluminum to use to minimize the wear due to the start up condition. By the way there is a reason why they use bushings in the con rods.
So having said all that, lets assume they get enough oil flow to maintain a film. Where does that flow come from? What happens when that flow momentarily drops? If this is getting a lot of flow, what isn't?
There is more to it, and they are not the sole holders of the knowledge of how things work. They are, however, masters at spreading fear and not divulging information."
Based on this explanation, can you explain if there are any chances for oiling deficiencies to occur. If minimal and with the type of metal used, would this holdup to a "lifetime" of wear without any adverse affects?
Would there be any chances of seeing metal to metal contact, especially at startup where there is minimal oil flow? And if so, what would be the long term effects?
TIA
01-14-2013, 12:58 PM
#69
Burning Brakes
Oil supply is easy, there is a sandwich adapter already made that fits between the spin on adapter and engine with fittings to use an Accusump. So the same or similar device could have a single line that pumps oil from there to the bearing. It's only like 16 inches away, but the housing would have to have a groove machined in it for the line. So this is just an aluminum journal with oil flow? That makes no sense to me. Why not use a bearing, with oil flow, designed so that the shaft is sealed from filling with oil? I must be missing something. I guess I just have to wait until it is formally announced.
01-14-2013, 01:11 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
I believe this is Porsche's reaction to the IMS drama also after selling how many units of 996s, 997s and Boxsters. Around 170,000 units of 996s were sold worldwide. Even more 997.1s and how many Boxster units?
01-14-2013, 01:15 PM
#71
Former Vendor
Would there be any chances of seeing metal to metal contact, especially at startup where there is minimal oil flow? And if so, what would be the long term effects?
The distributors that are selling these units have very strict guidelines that the product must conform to which include metallurgy and our testing regimen was a big part of getting these products into the industry at this level.
In short, I subjected the units to the worst possible conditions, and noted the results. Remember, these units go into my engines, which have historically set the bar for the rest of the industry.
Perryinva,
we have a design that fills the shaft with oil and another design that does not as the units were tested in both configurations. The kits are set up in the manner that performs the best, with the least compromise.
As always, I won't try to "sell" or convince anyone of anything, either you believe in our creations and technology enough to buy them, or you don't. The choice is that of the buyer, just like it should be and we don't go overboard with promises and unreal expectations.
01-14-2013, 01:36 PM
#72
As always, I won't try to "sell" or convince anyone of anything, either you believe in our creations and technology enough to buy them, or you don't. The choice is that of the buyer, just like it should be and we don't go overboard with promises and unreal expectations.
I've merely asked some basic and fundamental questions that I hoped you'd clear up for the rest of us trying to understand "the solution".
01-14-2013, 01:55 PM
#73
Former Vendor
No problem with your questions or explanations. The website will be open this week and will address all these points. I just don't have the time to sit here on the forum these days, sorry.
01-14-2013, 01:57 PM
#74
Thank you Jake. As you've done in the past with letting the cat out of the bag early, there are many that will naturally be curious and have questions before it's actually ready to be released. Looking forward to finding out more later.