996 Engine Failure and Lessons Learned
#121
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Interesting thread that I hadn't seen before. It's hard to believe anyone would think not using the spacer for the oil pickup in these deep sump systems would be "optional". I went with the FVD, it came with a spacer and there was nothing optional about installing it. I did a lot of HW before buying the FVD and never read that about any of the systems.
FWIW I've tracked my car 6 days, 30 sessions so far and only noticed what appeared to be AOS induced smoke during one session. That particular day I was running my oil level totally full (on the gauge and at the notch). It was minimal and didn't affect my oil level. My last track day I went back to around a ¼ below the full notch and didn't notice any smoke. If that becomes more prevalent in the future I will probably invest in the Motorsport AOS.
Maybe I'm playing with fire with 90K miles on an M96 3.4L but the motor is handling it fine and I'm running the same suspension upgrades as the OP.
FWIW I've tracked my car 6 days, 30 sessions so far and only noticed what appeared to be AOS induced smoke during one session. That particular day I was running my oil level totally full (on the gauge and at the notch). It was minimal and didn't affect my oil level. My last track day I went back to around a ¼ below the full notch and didn't notice any smoke. If that becomes more prevalent in the future I will probably invest in the Motorsport AOS.
Maybe I'm playing with fire with 90K miles on an M96 3.4L but the motor is handling it fine and I'm running the same suspension upgrades as the OP.
#122
Drifting
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Thank you for your contribution ."Racing improves the breed" !
I noticed that the Technosump from Pedro's Garage has an additional part compared to the other sump upgrade.It has a horizontal baffle above the pickup. This prevents the oil from 'climbing' the vertical baffle walls and escaping. In theory this would be more effective than just vertical baffles in constraining the oil ? The problem is ,the Technosump is very deep(+2qts.) and really needs a separate,robust sumpguard/skid plate for street use?
Is there a shallower sump upgrade with the horizontal baffle?Say just +1 qt.
I noticed that the Technosump from Pedro's Garage has an additional part compared to the other sump upgrade.It has a horizontal baffle above the pickup. This prevents the oil from 'climbing' the vertical baffle walls and escaping. In theory this would be more effective than just vertical baffles in constraining the oil ? The problem is ,the Technosump is very deep(+2qts.) and really needs a separate,robust sumpguard/skid plate for street use?
Is there a shallower sump upgrade with the horizontal baffle?Say just +1 qt.
#123
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I felt the FVD kind of hit the sweet spot between not being to deep and yet adding a decent amount of oil, a little under a qt. I have not hit mine on the street yet in spite of the car being lowered on the PSS10s.
FVD advertises an X51 style baffle system and while it has no horizontal baffle like Pedro's at some point one has to trust these things have some thought/engineering that goes into their design.![ducking](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/icon107.gif)
The other benefits over a spacer based sump system are one less seam to worry about sealing up and the cooling factor FVD advertises (although I'm not sure I've seen any obvious benefit there.)
To answer your question I have not seen another system with the horizontal baffle like Pedro's.
FVD advertises an X51 style baffle system and while it has no horizontal baffle like Pedro's at some point one has to trust these things have some thought/engineering that goes into their design.
![ducking](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/icon107.gif)
The other benefits over a spacer based sump system are one less seam to worry about sealing up and the cooling factor FVD advertises (although I'm not sure I've seen any obvious benefit there.)
To answer your question I have not seen another system with the horizontal baffle like Pedro's.
#124
Instructor
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I'm glad you read the LN Engineering info. I have accomplished what I had hoped to with my original post. You and others now know a little more about the engine and it's weaknesses. I spent the day on the track with M3's on coilovers and r-compounds; none of which had any problems. I was on street tires.
I had the oil changed 5k miles ago in March along with a new clutch, LN Engineering IMS bearing upgrade, and cam cover seals. No metal observed in the filter.
I had the oil changed 5k miles ago in March along with a new clutch, LN Engineering IMS bearing upgrade, and cam cover seals. No metal observed in the filter.
But as many DE people will and have pointed out, "most of the M96's I have seen at the track survive just fine, and I believe that you may have purchased a car that saw a lot of track and was sent down the road. Who knows if the previous owner had other problems.
BTW, I am really surprised that you went to a track event on 5000 mile old oil that you didnt check the level of until after you noticed smoke... You could have had issues before you even went on the track. Im not trying to make you feel bad, but at 5000 miles you could have used up a lot of the good anti foaming, shear stability in the oil.
I run my car hard, just hit 90,000 miles but my oil is under constant surviellence...lol
#125
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+ 1 on the sorry!! What your post has shown for me is to avoid car with a history of track use and also just for me No Track use. If others are into it great most know the expenses that come with the track.
I know that DE days and Track time are a blast but it comes with risk of extra wear and tear and on rare occasions a catastrophic engine failure. Not Just 996 but any car that is driven hard is at risk of this. that why racing teams always travel with a spare engine.
I have a friend that blew up his low mileage Audi TT on the track - threw a serpentine belt overheated then a catastrophic engine failure
I know that DE days and Track time are a blast but it comes with risk of extra wear and tear and on rare occasions a catastrophic engine failure. Not Just 996 but any car that is driven hard is at risk of this. that why racing teams always travel with a spare engine.
I have a friend that blew up his low mileage Audi TT on the track - threw a serpentine belt overheated then a catastrophic engine failure
#126
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+ 1 on the sorry!! What your post has shown for me is to avoid car with a history of track use and also just for me No Track use. If others are into it great most know the expenses that come with the track.
I know that DE days and Track time are a blast but it comes with risk of extra wear and tear and on rare occasions a catastrophic engine failure. Not Just 996 but any car that is driven hard is at risk of this. that why racing teams always travel with a spare engine.
I have a friend that blew up his low mileage Audi TT on the track - threw a serpentine belt overheated then a catastrophic engine failure
I know that DE days and Track time are a blast but it comes with risk of extra wear and tear and on rare occasions a catastrophic engine failure. Not Just 996 but any car that is driven hard is at risk of this. that why racing teams always travel with a spare engine.
I have a friend that blew up his low mileage Audi TT on the track - threw a serpentine belt overheated then a catastrophic engine failure
Track use will bring out any hidden flaws sooner (like an improperly installed deep sump) but other then that it's still a crap shoot in a lot of ways. Extra wear and tear on the suspension and brakes you can certainly count on though.
#127
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Everything has limits, ourselves included, the object of the game is to never exceed our limits!
#128
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I hate to revive this thread but could not resist. I been reading this with interest, it seems you guys are running around in circle. The truth is and I am relatively new to the Porsche world although I had my 2006 997 for over 4 years without any problem other than a blown oil pressure sensor. But I am not new to the car and vintage car world having owned many exotics and muscle cars some of them wet sump and other dry sump.
Truth is:
Porsche was broke in the late 90s' and it needed to improve margins in order to survive. The 993 their flagship was rapidly becoming obsolete and too costly to build. So they decided to design the new 996 with about the same mechanicals as the newly released Boxter their entry level car (A modern 914 iteration). Truth is, most Porsche owners do not track their cars so the new much cheapened design would be fine for 99% of owners. In order not to scare their customers too much they would call their wet sump design "Integrated Dry Sump" which is complete BS, it's just a basic wet sump. There is one caveat however, the architecture of the boxer engine itself, in a vertical in-line design or an almost vertical V design, because oil just has to go down to return to the sump, wet sump works relatively well but on a flat design, you need to push the oil back to the sump and gravity wont do it, especially under high Gs in a track situation. Dry sump is by far the best design for racing cars or Motorcycles because one is assured of a constant supply of oil in any condition but it is quite expensive often requiring 2, 3 or even 4 pumps to operate properly, many hoses and an oil tank. It also provides superior cooling and can be easily outfitted with oil coolers.
So Porsche cheapened the car, built it more efficiently and became very profitable again. Actually, under most situation the M96 motor is more reliable and cheaper to maintain than the old air cooled one. No more oil leaks, plugged air exhaust ports etc. A few car were blowing up and those were fixed under warranty at the beginning but Porsche was still making tons of money, they built and sold more cars than ever before. Performance was increased, the new car was faster, had better handling than the 993.
For the Turbo and the GT series, they realized they could not use the M96 engine reliably so they used a water cooled design which can be traced to the GT1 and ultimately to the old traditional air cooled motor. But this engine is complicated, expensive, somewhat antiquated in its architecture with many parts and would not be readily feasible for a bread and butter daily drive car.
In this case I think Slicer is probably right that the M96 engine is probably not the best choice for a track car, at least in stock form. Although, in this case the engine had been "Mickey Moused" by a previous owner. Had the motor been stock with a proper oil pick-up, it may have been fine at least for a while.
My two cents!
Truth is:
Porsche was broke in the late 90s' and it needed to improve margins in order to survive. The 993 their flagship was rapidly becoming obsolete and too costly to build. So they decided to design the new 996 with about the same mechanicals as the newly released Boxter their entry level car (A modern 914 iteration). Truth is, most Porsche owners do not track their cars so the new much cheapened design would be fine for 99% of owners. In order not to scare their customers too much they would call their wet sump design "Integrated Dry Sump" which is complete BS, it's just a basic wet sump. There is one caveat however, the architecture of the boxer engine itself, in a vertical in-line design or an almost vertical V design, because oil just has to go down to return to the sump, wet sump works relatively well but on a flat design, you need to push the oil back to the sump and gravity wont do it, especially under high Gs in a track situation. Dry sump is by far the best design for racing cars or Motorcycles because one is assured of a constant supply of oil in any condition but it is quite expensive often requiring 2, 3 or even 4 pumps to operate properly, many hoses and an oil tank. It also provides superior cooling and can be easily outfitted with oil coolers.
So Porsche cheapened the car, built it more efficiently and became very profitable again. Actually, under most situation the M96 motor is more reliable and cheaper to maintain than the old air cooled one. No more oil leaks, plugged air exhaust ports etc. A few car were blowing up and those were fixed under warranty at the beginning but Porsche was still making tons of money, they built and sold more cars than ever before. Performance was increased, the new car was faster, had better handling than the 993.
For the Turbo and the GT series, they realized they could not use the M96 engine reliably so they used a water cooled design which can be traced to the GT1 and ultimately to the old traditional air cooled motor. But this engine is complicated, expensive, somewhat antiquated in its architecture with many parts and would not be readily feasible for a bread and butter daily drive car.
In this case I think Slicer is probably right that the M96 engine is probably not the best choice for a track car, at least in stock form. Although, in this case the engine had been "Mickey Moused" by a previous owner. Had the motor been stock with a proper oil pick-up, it may have been fine at least for a while.
My two cents!
Porsche was anything but broke in the late 1990s. It introduced the Boxer in 1996 and was making a killing on them. And it wasn't doing bad with the 993. The 996 was the upgrade to the 911 Porsche had wanted to do in the early 1990s but didn't have the money. The 993 was not discontinued because it lost money. It was discontinued because it was obsolete and could no longer compete with its competition while meeting emissions and noise regulations.
#129
Drifting
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Slicer,the O.P. did a great job of focusing on upgrades for Track use. My interest is using those upgrades in street cars - that suffer from some of the same issues.
The deep sump+horizontal baffle is a somewhat OTTT example.
The DOF IMS upgrade - too soon to tell if it is IMS nirvana for street cars ?
The upgraded AOS is interesting but wildly expensive for street use? We need an effective inexpensive alternative.
High shear/thermo stable engine lubricant seems a great help.
We still need a better water pump ,a solution to the second gear problem on 6 speeds, an accurate and well place oil temp sender+gauge+warning buzzer.
I find the 996 resources are generally better than our 986 ones.
The deep sump+horizontal baffle is a somewhat OTTT example.
The DOF IMS upgrade - too soon to tell if it is IMS nirvana for street cars ?
The upgraded AOS is interesting but wildly expensive for street use? We need an effective inexpensive alternative.
High shear/thermo stable engine lubricant seems a great help.
We still need a better water pump ,a solution to the second gear problem on 6 speeds, an accurate and well place oil temp sender+gauge+warning buzzer.
I find the 996 resources are generally better than our 986 ones.