JMLavoie

Flat6/LN Engineering:
You seem to be very confident with your upcoming 'IMS Solution'.
Is this confidence stemming from hrs of elaborate endurance testing accomplished so far, or is it from an educated enthusiasm for the future of this IMS Solution?
Martin

mlambert890

well one thing guaranteed is that it will sell really really well inlcluding to folks who have already purchased the LM bearing since the idea is that this is a "real fix" So if nothing else that is a reason for confidence

Personally Ill take my chances on the statistics and rely on a car with a known history, regular driving and religious maintenance until and if some new info surfaces that change the statistics. as for the notion that the problems can be summed up with "it will fail or it wont" "some fail some dont" "care or dont", literally *any* problem with *anything* can be summed up with that logic. Anything from heart disease to the iphone antenna issues. If that were going to be the "last word" then there would quite literally be no need to discuss anything ever again. Anything might or might not happen and any given person either cares or they dont by definition.

Flat6 Innovations

We are very confident after having sat our asses in the seat of the vehicle equipped with the unit over a 7,000 mile trip across the continent. Charles and I developed this from just an idea in 2009 and after 5 generations we finally have a perfected unit that passes every challenge we throw at it with flying colors. This includes 5,000+ start cycles, 300+ WOT chassis dyno runs, 170 hours of idling without being shut down (at the hottest time of te summer with ambient temps 105+ for a week) and also back to back testing for MPG, BSFC and power output.

It's a true solution from a grassroots effort from the two teams that truly understand the issues and what causes the original design to be inadequate. When we debuted the technology for the first time in my M96 engine class in Edmonton Canada after driving the car there the attendees were both shocked and the general consensus was "damn, that makes so much sense".

We will be offering credits to those who wish to trade their retrofit bearing in for a solution when the time comes. Flat 6 will be the exclusive installer for the first 18 months or so as we cannot afford installation complications that other shops may experience and overlook which would cost the technology it's reputation. The only way to know its done perfectly is for the hands that developed it to install it 100%.

I finished the 7,000 mile trip last night, our average speeds and MPG were staggering, even through the most harsh roads possible, to include a dirt road that was 107 miles long. Charles and I took our time to carry out this success tour ourselves to prove the confidence that we have in the entire development and that includes having zero spare "solution" parts on hand with us and the only tool we had was a leatherman. The car and engine performed flawlessly and it's all one big rolling experiment with many of our generation II engine components employed that reach well beyond the IMS Solution

alpine003

I'm still a bit confused on what you can learn in only 7k miles of testing vs 40-100k miles of various operating condition and environment variables that a typical car may see before electing to update or requiring an IMS fix.

Flat6 Innovations

I haven't divulged everything and I won't..
That said the factory develops vehicles with projections and no seat of the pants testing, or very, very little. This is one thing that lead to the 23 documented modes of engine failure that we have noted with these engines.
That said, when a component is subjected to neglect and abuse and then purposely is forced to fail we learn a lot. Our resumes in the engine development arena are long an the components that we develop sell themselves over and over again. If you'd rather us spend another decade developing the product rather than 3 years and stand by while thousands more engines fail you are probably not the kind of buyer that we cater to.
This 7,000 mile test was ONE of the things we have done, not the only one. It was also done as a success tour more than anything since the other real test work has been over since July.

It's pretty simple, if you don't believe in it just don't buy it, I am sure we won't be able to keep up with demand anyway- we never can.
This same sort of skepticism existed with the current retrofit bearing and we are accustomed to it, because there's always that 10% that can't be pleased or want to be told what they want to hear and we don't play that game.
This unit will become the ONLY option for an IMS arrangement in my engines next month, just like the triple row IMS bearing was from te beginning till present day. We have had ZERO failures from those and we developed them in the exact same way as the IMS Solution.

If I didn't trust it with my heart and soul I wouldn't use it in my engines that are fully warranted and start with an 18,000.00 price tag. Take that to the bank-

alpine003

Fair enough but I think it's a bit hard for some people to swallow if someone says they have the next best thing to slice bread but aren't willing to come forth with enough evidence or information. Until then, I'm just reserving my judgement and not getting excited even though I sense your enthusiasm and belief that this will be the ultimate cure. I hope you understand from the consumer side and the reason why I have questions you may not be willing to answer currently.

Also, I tend to disagree with you depending on what you deem the factory to test on with no seat of the pants testing and mainly projections. I have a relative that works in the industry and this is simply not the case.

I don't disagree with you about your resume or the fact that your products are great, however I do believe that a portion of your sales are mainly driven by fear and insurance rather than a pure need to get your product(debateable of course). I have to wonder if engines were the cost of used Honda engines, how many people would electively decide to do the retrofit?

Once again, debatable at best. You are predicting "thousands" of engines will fail promoting the fear factor again relating to the IMS. Can it happen, yes. However you yourself admitted that there can be many modes of failure and this new IMS solution does not tackle all of them if I'm understanding this correctly. Therefore just because someone gets the new IMS solution doesn't mean their engines will not fail. I just want some clarificaiton on that.

However this is the one you seemed to have emphasized the most in your posts here alluding that this one potentally was the most important. Why not emphasize the other tests that seem to be more relevent or hold more weight in your testing processes and explain how those tests could be attributed to the long term real word scenarios?

So just to be clear, you are installing the new IMS solution for your engines that you build but are not going to be for sale for retrofit until later on? And even then it would have to be installed in your facilities?

I'm neither a fanboy or hater but just approaching this cautiously and objectively while trying to remove the fear factor and replacing it instead with logic. I'm not here to make you look bad or good. I just wish there was more transparency and clear communication so that us consumers can understand more of the facts and hear less of the hype.

I really do hope your new IMS solution works out so it can boost our 996 values down the line since it will make upgrading to a 991 that much easier.

Flat6 Innovations

As always, the technology finds its way into our engines first. As those are applied worldwide and the technology gains respect and momentum things start to move into the market place in other ways. A good example is the IMS Update that was first used as a triple row bearing in our engines and is now sold to other builders across the globe without a single failure.

In the interim, yes it will be exclusively installed through our facility. This is primarily to ensure that each install is done correctly and to hone the installation procedure for future installers to benefit from.
Just like we developed the tools and etc for the IMS Retrofit in the same manner and we carried out the first retrofit ever, right here.

Not a problem. We are accustomed to this sort of post and the skepticism that exists today. You'll see a feature on the technology in Excellence soon as well as very specific descriptions of hoow it works when the time is right. Right now we are working hard to do all the things right in regard to bringing the units to the market place and thats why you won't even read about this on my website or the LN site. I have only mentioned it here on these forums and maybe once on 986forum.com. I can see now that I should have refrained from doing so.

Thats all I'll say, from this point forward my lips are zipped and the keyboard is locked. Trust that ANYTHING we develop is done to the best of our ability with thorough testing in the real world behind it. We haven't earned the respect we have from being ineffective.

MiamiC70

Good idea boost the 996 values and lets start a FUD 997.2 campain sometime next year so it will lower the value of values and I can upgrade

alpine003

Thank you for your response and yes I figured you sort of jumped the gun in your enthusiasm by letting the cat out of the bag a bit prematurely. However, you did a great job in the hush hush dept for all this time so it's not all that bad.

I look forward to reading more about the upcoming product and also see it in action.

JMLavoie

Thank you Jake and Alpine003 for running this civilized conversation on a topic that has been quite emotional in the past.
My 00 C2 has 140k+ kms so far, never had the IMS bearing replaced and it is certainly in my plans to do it in the future as it has been an excellent machine.
We all appreciate you giving Porsche owners a possible IMS Solution alternative in the future other than the Porsche OEM replacement part option, especially if your Solution has the potential to be a 'definitive' one.
In my view, as opposed to clamming up, I would recommend you keep updating us on your successes. I look forward to reading your article in the upcoming Excellence magazine.
Cheers!
Martin

fanny bay r1

I to look forward to reading this after Martin buys it and passes it one office over!!!

jasper

Let's talk M97 here for a minute guys (indulge me please Jake - count me as a supporter by the way)

1) Has there *ever* been a M97 Intermediate Shaft Bearing failure documented? Note that I spelled it out because I don't want to hear about other engine failures - only verified M97 IMSB failures. Somewhere someone said it's never happened. So far I haven't heard of anyone ever seeing one failed.

2) Once your ultimate solution hits the mainstream - years down the road - will I be able to DIY retrofit my M97 ( notwithstanding the question above)

Thanks!

jasper

Schmuckle...dude.

There are as many DIY IMSB retrofit threads here on Rennlist as there are "how do I open my trunk with a dead battery?" threads.

You can't swing a cat here without someone pulling their trans for a clutch job and replacing the IMSB while they're in there. Jake will sell the kit plus tools for about $700.

Jack the car, drop the transmission, pull the old bearing, tap in a new one....you're done before dinner.

I would have done my IMSB when I replaced my clutch this summer (see my thread here somewhere) but I have a later style M97 in which the bearing can't be pulled from the outside.

...

D6lc

My '99 smokes on startup, leaks oil, blows a little coolant.. the chains rattle ... the DM flywheel rattles, and yet about once a month, for a full weekend, all day, it pulls hard beyond 7000 RPM and teaches $120,000 GT3s what it means to brake hard and corner faster Just drive the damn things hard and you will be rewarded. If you idle around hoping to save your motor you are missing the point of Porsche ownership!

these are the posts I love, no scarmongery, just enjoy the car the way it was built!!!

Flat6 Innovations

Can't say that anymore.