996 Ownership after one year... I'm Out!
09-04-2012, 05:39 PM
#31
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The 996 while it has depreciated so much now and could be picked up cheap, don't let it fool you unless it comes with a new engine. It's a ticking time bomb on the wallet. Now it's so cheap that it's in the budget of a lot a people that would have never bought it while it was semi new, they would be better off with a 944 or pay a little more and get a 964.
Glad you at least got back some of what you put in to it. That Camaro is a beast.
Glad you at least got back some of what you put in to it. That Camaro is a beast.
The 3.4 cars typically seem to be the most talked about and there is no doubt that some do have issues. Unfortunately you are one of the unlucky ones. Although there are a lot of 996s that have been very reliable, that does not make it any easier when you are the unfortunate one. That said, at only $15K, you had quite a car. In your shoes, I would have considered replacing the IMS and then would have taken a serious look at some of the liner solutions that are out there (go check out Hartech for instance). It would not have been cheap, but it would have been a very solid motor.
These cars have a lot of good point too. Although it is fashionable to bash Porsche for bad engineering, I don’t believe that this is the truth. These engines are very sophisticated and were entirely new when they arrived on the scene. The bigger issue is that they have a high power density. That 1999 motor was rated at 87.1 hp/litre (a contemporary Corvette was 60.5). And today, that has grown to 102.9 today (for a base Carrera and 69 for a base ‘Vette). At the same time, fuel economy and emissions have significantly improved. Porsche has obviously learnt a lot in the intervening decades from the new water-cooled motors, and the 9A1 embodies a lot of the hard lessons.
Although many continue to give reliable service, there are definitely some things I would consider doing. For the earlier cars an IMS update is a very reasonable course of action, as a failed IMS caused tremendous collateral damage. Cracked cylinder walls are a noted weak point in the early 3.4s. That said, many 3.4s have gone much higher mileage with no issues (a guy local to this area is in the midst of a top-end on a 3.4 with +200K and cylinders are great). Your best bet here is being very diligent about the cooling system condition and warm-up/cool-down. Who knows how your car was treated before you got your hands on it? That said, there are surely some cars that develop issues for no real reason, it is the nature of complex mechanical devices.
As for a PPI, cylinder walls can be examined with a borescope, which is not unusual to do these days. The spark plugs have to come out for compression and leak down tests anyway.
These cars have a lot of good point too. Although it is fashionable to bash Porsche for bad engineering, I don’t believe that this is the truth. These engines are very sophisticated and were entirely new when they arrived on the scene. The bigger issue is that they have a high power density. That 1999 motor was rated at 87.1 hp/litre (a contemporary Corvette was 60.5). And today, that has grown to 102.9 today (for a base Carrera and 69 for a base ‘Vette). At the same time, fuel economy and emissions have significantly improved. Porsche has obviously learnt a lot in the intervening decades from the new water-cooled motors, and the 9A1 embodies a lot of the hard lessons.
Although many continue to give reliable service, there are definitely some things I would consider doing. For the earlier cars an IMS update is a very reasonable course of action, as a failed IMS caused tremendous collateral damage. Cracked cylinder walls are a noted weak point in the early 3.4s. That said, many 3.4s have gone much higher mileage with no issues (a guy local to this area is in the midst of a top-end on a 3.4 with +200K and cylinders are great). Your best bet here is being very diligent about the cooling system condition and warm-up/cool-down. Who knows how your car was treated before you got your hands on it? That said, there are surely some cars that develop issues for no real reason, it is the nature of complex mechanical devices.
As for a PPI, cylinder walls can be examined with a borescope, which is not unusual to do these days. The spark plugs have to come out for compression and leak down tests anyway.
Cool thread. The facts should be out there. Unfortunately, some topics on this forum become a little more like politics and religion and less like popular mechanics.
For $35,000, I've owned a car for two years that has had only one thirteen-dollar mechanical problem (a clutch switch). I could likely sell the car (in Canada) for more than $30,000. Therefore, the cost of ownership has been less than I could have expected from any other car on the market, new or used.
That said, there's a gamble. Sometimes when I read this forum I think that these cars are prone to catastrophic failure.
But then my father's Mercedes had a timing chain jump and the car was worthless. A few weeks later friend, and Rennlist member, had an oil line fail on his Saab. Also worthless.
The problem is that neither men posted these problems on a forum anywhere - certainly not on Rennlist. When an 10-year old Hyundai bites the dust no one cries or contemplates a class action lawsuit.
And people turn heads and take pictures of my 10-year old car. No one takes a picture of a camaro.
For $35,000, I've owned a car for two years that has had only one thirteen-dollar mechanical problem (a clutch switch). I could likely sell the car (in Canada) for more than $30,000. Therefore, the cost of ownership has been less than I could have expected from any other car on the market, new or used.
That said, there's a gamble. Sometimes when I read this forum I think that these cars are prone to catastrophic failure.
But then my father's Mercedes had a timing chain jump and the car was worthless. A few weeks later friend, and Rennlist member, had an oil line fail on his Saab. Also worthless.
The problem is that neither men posted these problems on a forum anywhere - certainly not on Rennlist. When an 10-year old Hyundai bites the dust no one cries or contemplates a class action lawsuit.
And people turn heads and take pictures of my 10-year old car. No one takes a picture of a camaro.
Big +1
If the previous owner(s) would have done the following, a cracked cylinder would have been far less likely:
1. Change your Water pump long before it shows signs of failure (especially if your car still has the orignal WP - regardless of year or mileage! - These cars are at least 7 years old now)
2. Invest in the lower temp (160) stat - I don't want to get into an argument of whether it keeps temps lower or not - it does - no need to discuss.
3.Ensure the quality of your coolant and make certain you have the right mix for your region/driving conditions.
4. Make sure all hoses are in decent shape
5. Keep your radiators clean and ensure that all fans are working in both stages.
and then drive the Sh*t out of the car.
If the previous owner(s) would have done the following, a cracked cylinder would have been far less likely:
1. Change your Water pump long before it shows signs of failure (especially if your car still has the orignal WP - regardless of year or mileage! - These cars are at least 7 years old now)
2. Invest in the lower temp (160) stat - I don't want to get into an argument of whether it keeps temps lower or not - it does - no need to discuss.
3.Ensure the quality of your coolant and make certain you have the right mix for your region/driving conditions.
4. Make sure all hoses are in decent shape
5. Keep your radiators clean and ensure that all fans are working in both stages.
and then drive the Sh*t out of the car.
Good discussion guys!
-JRW
09-04-2012, 05:52 PM
#32
RL Community Team
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Well, what is the "sheer number"? Based on the internet forums, I'd say it is a lot. Reading more informed sources such as Hartech and others, it seems more rare. From my own direct experience and reading a lot of information I have my own beliefs. All I will say is everyone has an angle and it becomes difficult to properly put things in perspective.
09-04-2012, 05:56 PM
#33
Three Wheelin'
Second, and please don't take this the wrong way but, I'm not sure how you can claim any right of expectation to a car you didn't have PPI'd before purchasing. For all you know, it was thrashed by the prior owner, used to teach kids how to drive, or driven without oil for months at a time. I know it isn't the answer to every problem but it might have saved you from buying the grenade you ended up with.
In all honesty, a KIA shouldn't time bomb at 100k either. Hell, they all come with 10yr/100k mile warranties! While I agree with you that any modern car should easily last well over 100k miles, I always took it as a universally known/understood principle that any car is a crap shoot when the odo reads about 100k. I'd expect to put good money into a car at that point for basic maintenance and if "thrashing" was part of its first 100k miles, I'd expect a lot of good money to follow.
I totally get being soured by the experience though. It sucks and I'm sorry you had a negative year with your Porsche. Hey, you can always come back and try it again.
Best of luck with the new car!
-Eric
09-04-2012, 06:11 PM
#34
Rocky Mountain High
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Sorry to hear you had a bad experience and I hope you find your way back into another Porsche someday!
My 996 ownership has been great. That being said, I have every record of everything done to my car since the day it was new. I've maintained it meticulously. It has been expensive, there's no doubt about that. I don't have a car payment, which is nice, but if you look at what I spend in maintenance per year and then spread it out over 12 months, I could make a payment on a pretty nice car! The 996, no matter how well maintained, is not a "drive it and forget it" vehicle like a newer car. There's always something to fix or mod... It's not for everyone.
My 996 ownership has been great. That being said, I have every record of everything done to my car since the day it was new. I've maintained it meticulously. It has been expensive, there's no doubt about that. I don't have a car payment, which is nice, but if you look at what I spend in maintenance per year and then spread it out over 12 months, I could make a payment on a pretty nice car! The 996, no matter how well maintained, is not a "drive it and forget it" vehicle like a newer car. There's always something to fix or mod... It's not for everyone.
09-04-2012, 06:30 PM
#35
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You know... reading all of these great replies and reflecting a bit, I think I am just upset that it "finally happened to me". I have a garage full of performance and semi-rare cars that have treated me very well. Maybe it was just time for my luck to run out. Maybe I was naive and should have paid more for a car with records or had a thorough PPI done including an internal inspection.
Either way, the sun still rose this morning so it's not the end of the world. I was lucky enough to drive a Porsche almost every day to work for about a year... and now I have something new to play with.
Anyone considering an early 996 would benefit greatly by reading this thread and following up with a search or two on here. Those with 911's... enjoy them ... and best of luck!
-JRW
Either way, the sun still rose this morning so it's not the end of the world. I was lucky enough to drive a Porsche almost every day to work for about a year... and now I have something new to play with.
Anyone considering an early 996 would benefit greatly by reading this thread and following up with a search or two on here. Those with 911's... enjoy them ... and best of luck!
-JRW
09-04-2012, 07:15 PM
#36
Burning Brakes
Unfortunately the cost of purchase is just the price of admission into the game, and it usually goes up from there, even for routine maintenance unless you can turn a decent wrench. And while anyone of us can get hit with the "big ticket" isues such as IMS or cracked cylinder walls, I believe the risk increases exponentially with age and miles. I also believe much of this can be attributed to Porsche becoming more focused on profits and less focused on durability and engineering in recent years.
09-04-2012, 08:14 PM
#37
I just bought an '03 Targa from a dealer last month, and, two days later, I decided to go back to the dealer and see if they'd still offer me the basic warranty for engine, transmission, etc. I spent $3000 on the warranty for 3 years of coverage... and my water pump went out a week later, which paid for nearly a third of the warranty. I didn't want to worry about IMS, RMS, etc., for at least 3 years, so I bought the warranty, and it's already well on its way to paying for itself! LOL
09-04-2012, 08:34 PM
#38
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I have seen plenty of these cars reach 200k+ miles, but like any car, it really depends on how well the car was taken care of and how hard the previous owner drove the car. a PPI with a compression test might saved you a lot of trouble.
09-04-2012, 09:14 PM
#39
Sorry to hear that the experience has soured you on the brand, I hope the trading dealer doesn't pass off your headaches to someone else who thinks Porsche's are affordable and ends up in the same cycle.
No easy answers, getting out of bed in the morning is a gamble. I guess the difference is that those who don't make it out of bed, or meet their demise that day, aren't around to post on the internet about it.
I've been lucky, I have two 996's and purchased both of them used, one as a CPO from a dealer a little over 5 years ago and had it not been a CPO car I wouldn't be as happy, yet nothing catastrophic in over 50k miles of driving. The other from a private party, had a long distance PPI done but expect that was just a routine inspection as it cost only $200.00. Bought the second one sight unseen, had it about 10 months and put over 10k miles it, most expensive repair, covered by 3rd party warranty, was the audio head unit and amplifier.
When I first started looking I knew nothing of the IMS or RMS - but I remember a friend who is a "Porsche Guy" caution me that almost all Porsches "look" good. Need to understand that these are truly highly engineered performance cars and as such there is much that needs to remain operating in harmony. Yes, it costs me to drive these cars on a daily basis, and I only have the cars serviced and repaired by my local Porsche dealer, so far so good.
Now on the other hand, I have a couple of 20+ year old Ford trucks with well over 100k miles on the clock. They are neglected, oil leaks don't get fixed, I add oil. The trucks can sit untouched over an entire cold winter, and no lie, I get in either one of them, turn the key and they come to life. If you knew how many times I thought - "amazing that they drive down the road, steer and brake, for as old and neglected as they are and neither of them with ever a problem that took them out of service". That said, I still think they are dangerous as hell, they don't steer very well and you had better know that you need to stop a bit ahead of time (they always were that way, I've owned one of them from new).
Purposeful apples to oranges comparison. One brand that I personally consider as a precision instrument, the other brand designed to be built "Ford Tough" and capable of operating under a broad range of tolerances.
I think Porsche's mantra is "Porsche, there is no substitute".
They each have their respective place on the road. As do we all.
Months ago a Camaro SS was toying with me in my C4S. It was a tremendously fun time, I could not only hear that Camaro thundering up from behind, I swear I could "feel" him coming. Then again, the howling of my PSE and the song played at high rev's by the Porsche engine may have enticed him to attempt to show me his stuff - the car did look good in my rear view mirror during our top end run.
Enjoy your new ride - go out and see if it eats Porsche's for breakfast - that'd be fun. Sincere wishes for better luck with the Camaro.
No easy answers, getting out of bed in the morning is a gamble. I guess the difference is that those who don't make it out of bed, or meet their demise that day, aren't around to post on the internet about it.
I've been lucky, I have two 996's and purchased both of them used, one as a CPO from a dealer a little over 5 years ago and had it not been a CPO car I wouldn't be as happy, yet nothing catastrophic in over 50k miles of driving. The other from a private party, had a long distance PPI done but expect that was just a routine inspection as it cost only $200.00. Bought the second one sight unseen, had it about 10 months and put over 10k miles it, most expensive repair, covered by 3rd party warranty, was the audio head unit and amplifier.
When I first started looking I knew nothing of the IMS or RMS - but I remember a friend who is a "Porsche Guy" caution me that almost all Porsches "look" good. Need to understand that these are truly highly engineered performance cars and as such there is much that needs to remain operating in harmony. Yes, it costs me to drive these cars on a daily basis, and I only have the cars serviced and repaired by my local Porsche dealer, so far so good.
Now on the other hand, I have a couple of 20+ year old Ford trucks with well over 100k miles on the clock. They are neglected, oil leaks don't get fixed, I add oil. The trucks can sit untouched over an entire cold winter, and no lie, I get in either one of them, turn the key and they come to life. If you knew how many times I thought - "amazing that they drive down the road, steer and brake, for as old and neglected as they are and neither of them with ever a problem that took them out of service". That said, I still think they are dangerous as hell, they don't steer very well and you had better know that you need to stop a bit ahead of time (they always were that way, I've owned one of them from new).
Purposeful apples to oranges comparison. One brand that I personally consider as a precision instrument, the other brand designed to be built "Ford Tough" and capable of operating under a broad range of tolerances.
I think Porsche's mantra is "Porsche, there is no substitute".
They each have their respective place on the road. As do we all.
Months ago a Camaro SS was toying with me in my C4S. It was a tremendously fun time, I could not only hear that Camaro thundering up from behind, I swear I could "feel" him coming. Then again, the howling of my PSE and the song played at high rev's by the Porsche engine may have enticed him to attempt to show me his stuff - the car did look good in my rear view mirror during our top end run.
Enjoy your new ride - go out and see if it eats Porsche's for breakfast - that'd be fun. Sincere wishes for better luck with the Camaro.
09-04-2012, 09:50 PM
#40
Firstly, I am sorry to hear that OP had a bad experience - but the fact remains is that this is an $80K car that he paid $15K for - when a 911 (even a 996) is that cheap, it cannot have come as a surprise that it bombed out so soon. It is also seems true that the 1998-2000 years have more issues.
I shopped for my Porsche for about 6 months before I finally bought. What I learned in that process is that there are no "deals" on Porsches - the good ones do command top dollar. It is also a commodity that people seem to shop for across North America - so prices for the good ones stay high. When a 996/997 is cheaper, well, there's usually a story behind it.
I shopped for my Porsche for about 6 months before I finally bought. What I learned in that process is that there are no "deals" on Porsches - the good ones do command top dollar. It is also a commodity that people seem to shop for across North America - so prices for the good ones stay high. When a 996/997 is cheaper, well, there's usually a story behind it.
09-04-2012, 10:00 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Another instance of someone thinking they were getting a bargain porsche and learned it comes with super-car costs. You now have a car that fits you perfect. A porsche isnt for everyone.
09-04-2012, 10:12 PM
#42
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To the OP, I'm sorry that things didn't work out for you. To that point, you were essentially unscathed in this whole process -- you paid $2500 over 12 months to drive a fantastic car. While I know they were helpful, did you consider getting a second opinion from the original Indy that diagnosed your issue?
GL with the Camaro.
DS
GL with the Camaro.
DS
09-04-2012, 10:25 PM
#43
Captain Obvious
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The 928s were in this same exact boat, 15 years ago. I'll give it another five years and the owner demographics will change to an almost all DIY owners. AND then the real fun begins and at the same time, the current 996 owner group will be in the 997 forum. That's just how the Porsche cycle works. The 996s are getting so cheap now that gearheads and true all out DIYs are starting to take notice. That's how I got my hands on my 996 project 2 months ago.
09-04-2012, 11:11 PM
#44
Race Director
1. A 300 hp 996 is not exactly what I would term a 'High Performance Sports Car'
However, if the 996 HP/TQ numbers and the corresponding track times makes it so:
2. There are several, several examples that out perform, outlast and are substantially cheaper than a MkI 996 when new.
As for comparable used car pricing, the fact the 996 cannot even hold its value against the mass produced Corvette (and I am talking regular C6 versions, not Z06), should say a lot about how the mighty Porsche name has fallen. Once mentioned is every sentence that held even vague reference to sports cars in general, it is now become somewhat of an afterthought to many outside of the immediate community.
When you water your brand and reputation with bland products, well publicized sketchy reliability, overblown service & parts costs that are all backed up by a 'Who gives a **** about the customer~Porsche NA', then this is exactly the fall from grace they should expect.....but don't.
I mean seriously....other than some GT cars, what have they really produced that made you sell your kids to get on a waiting list to snag one?
Sorry to hear of troubles OP. Good luck with the new car
09-05-2012, 12:03 AM
#45
Two quick observations applying your comment to the relevance of this thread:
1. A 300 hp 996 is not exactly what I would term a 'High Performance Sports Car'
However, if the 996 HP/TQ numbers and the corresponding track times makes it so:
2. There are several, several examples that out perform, outlast and are substantially cheaper than a MkI 996 when new.
As for comparable used car pricing, the fact the 996 cannot even hold its value against the mass produced Corvette (and I am talking regular C6 versions, not Z06), should say a lot about how the mighty Porsche name has fallen. Once mentioned is every sentence that held even vague reference to sports cars in general, it is now become somewhat of an afterthought to many outside of the immediate community.
When you water your brand and reputation with bland products, well publicized sketchy reliability, overblown service & parts costs that are all backed up by a 'Who gives a **** about the customer~Porsche NA', then this is exactly the fall from grace they should expect.....but don't.
I mean seriously....other than some GT cars, what have they really produced that made you sell your kids to get on a waiting list to snag one?
Sorry to hear of troubles OP. Good luck with the new car
1. A 300 hp 996 is not exactly what I would term a 'High Performance Sports Car'
However, if the 996 HP/TQ numbers and the corresponding track times makes it so:
2. There are several, several examples that out perform, outlast and are substantially cheaper than a MkI 996 when new.
As for comparable used car pricing, the fact the 996 cannot even hold its value against the mass produced Corvette (and I am talking regular C6 versions, not Z06), should say a lot about how the mighty Porsche name has fallen. Once mentioned is every sentence that held even vague reference to sports cars in general, it is now become somewhat of an afterthought to many outside of the immediate community.
When you water your brand and reputation with bland products, well publicized sketchy reliability, overblown service & parts costs that are all backed up by a 'Who gives a **** about the customer~Porsche NA', then this is exactly the fall from grace they should expect.....but don't.
I mean seriously....other than some GT cars, what have they really produced that made you sell your kids to get on a waiting list to snag one?
Sorry to hear of troubles OP. Good luck with the new car
trolololol