NA-TT 996 3.4 build
#16
Do you know how dyno's work? And the tables in ECU's? The WOT comment is a little odd.
Yup, I have tuned a car, using an aftermarket ECU, my flatmate has a dynapac hub dyno.
Its the easiest part because you just pop the car on the dyno, and enter values into timing and fueling tables plus other parameter tables like excel fueling and over run and rev limit and you get the point... reflashing an ECU will run around $2k depending on he process (live mapping versus save and run incremental changes mapping). Or about the cost of one of the two new turbo's
Nothing wrong with buying a kit if you cant do the work yourself... the cost is unreasonable though in my view.
I have not tuned a 911 before, only a 944 turbo, Supra, Levin, and Trueno. When did you start tuning 996's? Keen to hear your experiences.
Yup, I have tuned a car, using an aftermarket ECU, my flatmate has a dynapac hub dyno.
Its the easiest part because you just pop the car on the dyno, and enter values into timing and fueling tables plus other parameter tables like excel fueling and over run and rev limit and you get the point... reflashing an ECU will run around $2k depending on he process (live mapping versus save and run incremental changes mapping). Or about the cost of one of the two new turbo's
Nothing wrong with buying a kit if you cant do the work yourself... the cost is unreasonable though in my view.
I have not tuned a 911 before, only a 944 turbo, Supra, Levin, and Trueno. When did you start tuning 996's? Keen to hear your experiences.
You also mention you used an aftermarket ECU. Per my post, I don't know anyone using aftermarket ECU's on a 996 on this side of the pond for FI hence the reason why it's even more difficult to crack the factory ecu for the DIY'er.
I love your blanket statement about just popping it on the dyno and enter in "some" values. I think you are oversimplifying things there.
If it were that easy, there would've been several more people on here that would've already done it.
#17
yup semi-ontopic , for those of us that need to pass emissions, we need to stick w\ the DME , id love to get more options for DME tuning
w\out emissions, id prefer standalone and E85
w\out emissions, id prefer standalone and E85
#18
Amen with higher resistance to detonation allowing more aggressive timing, it gives a bit more safety blanket around tuning. Especially for those that aren't familiar around the characteristics of a particular motor.
Plus we live around Corn Fields and can get it for free. ( I wish)
Plus we live around Corn Fields and can get it for free. ( I wish)
#19
Race Director
Yes I know how dyno's work. I've done several runs on them(mostly Dynojet roller and a couple dynapacks) and tuned cars in the past. Hub based dyno's like Dynapack will allow you to emulate and tune part throttle conditions to a degree but most good tuners knows that the maps still need to be further refined on the road. I've never just been satisfied at tuning something on the dyno and leaving it as is, especially if you want a really refined ride that these kinds of cars deserve.
You also mention you used an aftermarket ECU. Per my post, I don't know anyone using aftermarket ECU's on a 996 on this side of the pond for FI hence the reason why it's even more difficult to crack the factory ecu for the DIY'er.
I love your blanket statement about just popping it on the dyno and enter in "some" values. I think you are oversimplifying things there.
If it were that easy, there would've been several more people on here that would've already done it.
You also mention you used an aftermarket ECU. Per my post, I don't know anyone using aftermarket ECU's on a 996 on this side of the pond for FI hence the reason why it's even more difficult to crack the factory ecu for the DIY'er.
I love your blanket statement about just popping it on the dyno and enter in "some" values. I think you are oversimplifying things there.
If it were that easy, there would've been several more people on here that would've already done it.
You can tune the Bosch ME7.2 easily with ODBII connectivity. You dont have to use an aftermarket ECU, I wasnt suggesting aftermarket, I only said I have mucked about with aftermarket ECU's. You would use the stock ECU as I previously mentioned, its not for the DIY'er, not sure how many DIY'ers have their own dyno and cables and software to tune.
I am not at all interested in FI as its mostly pointless since I have a track car already, and since most people would generally just buy a turbo, over spending money having other people convert NT to NATT, then maybe that explains why people dont DIY something up, not the fact it cant be done. I didnt say it was easy, I said the easiest part, from my perspective, is the ECU side of things. You can take that and spin it into the whole project is easy if that suits your argument.
#20
Race Director
Incidently, I put a Lexus V8 into a Supra and it was NA, converted it to turbo, and from auto to manual... that wasnt hard, but cant speak for the 996 as I have not done it yet
#21
It could also be that all you OZ's and Kiwi's have dynos on practically every block and do crazy things down there that us Yankees do not. I definitely think you guys are further ahead of the tuning curve down there.
Still remember watching "Fast 4's and Rotaries" over 15 years ago and I thought you guys were crazy with the Evos and Cosmos back then. First turboed 20b triple rotary I've ever seen. And thanks to you guys, I actually contemplated on swapping over an Sr20Det to an e30.
If you guys know something we don't up here, please share it.
Still remember watching "Fast 4's and Rotaries" over 15 years ago and I thought you guys were crazy with the Evos and Cosmos back then. First turboed 20b triple rotary I've ever seen. And thanks to you guys, I actually contemplated on swapping over an Sr20Det to an e30.
If you guys know something we don't up here, please share it.
#22
Nordschleife Master
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Byprodriver, I also thought that the 3.6 crank was the way to go, if you were rebuilding a 3.4 engine. I believe that I read on Jake Raby's site or in one of his posts, that the 3.6 crank will not work in a 3.4 engine because the oil passages are not compatable. Did I misread his information? Do you know something different from personal experience? Thanks for any information that you can provide. It would be nice if we could buy a stronger aftermarket crankshaft for our cars to allow for greater displacement.
#24
Race Director
It could also be that all you OZ's and Kiwi's have dynos on practically every block and do crazy things down there that us Yankees do not. I definitely think you guys are further ahead of the tuning curve down there.
Still remember watching "Fast 4's and Rotaries" over 15 years ago and I thought you guys were crazy with the Evos and Cosmos back then. First turboed 20b triple rotary I've ever seen. And thanks to you guys, I actually contemplated on swapping over an Sr20Det to an e30.
If you guys know something we don't up here, please share it.
Still remember watching "Fast 4's and Rotaries" over 15 years ago and I thought you guys were crazy with the Evos and Cosmos back then. First turboed 20b triple rotary I've ever seen. And thanks to you guys, I actually contemplated on swapping over an Sr20Det to an e30.
If you guys know something we don't up here, please share it.
#25
Not sure what point you are gonna prove? Any monkey with the given software can input values, and with little knowledge and theory can even read a wideband on a dyno and adjust a/f and ignition timing accordingly to some degree.
However, there is a difference between "so so" tunes and great factory like tunes in terms of daily driveability,reliability, and efficiency on aftermarket FI diy tunes. I've seen my share of "so so" tunes and only a handful of factory like tunes from the DIY community.
This I feel is due to the lack of that extra knowledge and level of effort to iron out these aspects. I can't tell you how many tunes I've seen with people just dumping fuel at 11:1 with very conservative ignition timing. Sure the car runs "ok" with certain rpm ranges but idles like crap, wastes gas, and doesn't produce as much power as it could.
I see two hurdles here for the DIYer(at least in the US).
1. Lack of user friendly software to interface with the Porsche ECU that is available to the DIYer
2. Dynotime starting around $100-125 per hour on the avg. can add up fast
This isn't a Honda or Toyota crowd and I would think Porsche owners would expect nothing but the best.
Come back to us if you find any DIY user friendly software for our ECU's or manage to extract 15-20whp from your existing motor.
However, there is a difference between "so so" tunes and great factory like tunes in terms of daily driveability,reliability, and efficiency on aftermarket FI diy tunes. I've seen my share of "so so" tunes and only a handful of factory like tunes from the DIY community.
This I feel is due to the lack of that extra knowledge and level of effort to iron out these aspects. I can't tell you how many tunes I've seen with people just dumping fuel at 11:1 with very conservative ignition timing. Sure the car runs "ok" with certain rpm ranges but idles like crap, wastes gas, and doesn't produce as much power as it could.
I see two hurdles here for the DIYer(at least in the US).
1. Lack of user friendly software to interface with the Porsche ECU that is available to the DIYer
2. Dynotime starting around $100-125 per hour on the avg. can add up fast
This isn't a Honda or Toyota crowd and I would think Porsche owners would expect nothing but the best.
Come back to us if you find any DIY user friendly software for our ECU's or manage to extract 15-20whp from your existing motor.
#27
Race Director
Not sure what point you are gonna prove? Any monkey with the given software can input values, and with little knowledge and theory can even read a wideband on a dyno and adjust a/f and ignition timing accordingly to some degree.
However, there is a difference between "so so" tunes and great factory like tunes in terms of daily driveability,reliability, and efficiency on aftermarket FI diy tunes. I've seen my share of "so so" tunes and only a handful of factory like tunes from the DIY community.
This I feel is due to the lack of that extra knowledge and level of effort to iron out these aspects. I can't tell you how many tunes I've seen with people just dumping fuel at 11:1 with very conservative ignition timing. Sure the car runs "ok" with certain rpm ranges but idles like crap, wastes gas, and doesn't produce as much power as it could.
I see two hurdles here for the DIYer(at least in the US).
1. Lack of user friendly software to interface with the Porsche ECU that is available to the DIYer
2. Dynotime starting around $100-125 per hour on the avg. can add up fast
This isn't a Honda or Toyota crowd and I would think Porsche owners would expect nothing but the best.
Come back to us if you find any DIY user friendly software for our ECU's or manage to extract 15-20whp from your existing motor.
However, there is a difference between "so so" tunes and great factory like tunes in terms of daily driveability,reliability, and efficiency on aftermarket FI diy tunes. I've seen my share of "so so" tunes and only a handful of factory like tunes from the DIY community.
This I feel is due to the lack of that extra knowledge and level of effort to iron out these aspects. I can't tell you how many tunes I've seen with people just dumping fuel at 11:1 with very conservative ignition timing. Sure the car runs "ok" with certain rpm ranges but idles like crap, wastes gas, and doesn't produce as much power as it could.
I see two hurdles here for the DIYer(at least in the US).
1. Lack of user friendly software to interface with the Porsche ECU that is available to the DIYer
2. Dynotime starting around $100-125 per hour on the avg. can add up fast
This isn't a Honda or Toyota crowd and I would think Porsche owners would expect nothing but the best.
Come back to us if you find any DIY user friendly software for our ECU's or manage to extract 15-20whp from your existing motor.
Sounds like the issue is totally about the skills of the resources available, for me, this is the easiest part of turbo charging, for others it seems to be the hardest.
#28
No DIYer will be able to tune their own cars without a dyno, which not longer makes it a DIY job for most people, a wideband is only one tool for tuning, there is also knock and EGT to consider.
Sounds like the issue is totally about the skills of the resources available, for me, this is the easiest part of turbo charging, for others it seems to be the hardest.
Sounds like the issue is totally about the skills of the resources available, for me, this is the easiest part of turbo charging, for others it seems to be the hardest.
I agree that you need egt and knock to fully round out the tuning process. Per my previous post, I also have a set of headphones in addition to knock sensor because I'm ocd. I can understand that dyno shops will not be able to retrofit an egt probe on the hottest exhaust manifold bank but if you are DIY, you owe it to yourself to tap one into your setup. It's nice to know when you're approaching 1600 degrees.
I agree with you in regards to the level of difficulty whether it be on the tuning side or fabrication will be dependent on the individuals talents or resources available to them.
But right now, there is very scarce resources and software for the DIY in the Porsche market.
#29
Race Director
You can rent a dyno here as well, but its hardly in the skill set of 99.9% of people to be able to operate them effectively.
Right so all you need is the ODBII connectivity software? I know someone that has it for the Bosch ME7.2 ECU. Which I think is the 3.4 motors ECU from 2000?
Right so all you need is the ODBII connectivity software? I know someone that has it for the Bosch ME7.2 ECU. Which I think is the 3.4 motors ECU from 2000?
#30
You can rent a dyno here as well, but its hardly in the skill set of 99.9% of people to be able to operate them effectively.
Right so all you need is the ODBII connectivity software? I know someone that has it for the Bosch ME7.2 ECU. Which I think is the 3.4 motors ECU from 2000?
Right so all you need is the ODBII connectivity software? I know someone that has it for the Bosch ME7.2 ECU. Which I think is the 3.4 motors ECU from 2000?
Please do share if you know of the software. That would be one step closer to do DIY tuning. The right drivers help as well since some software need specific drivers.