G-Force Performance Chip
02-15-2012, 01:31 PM
#16
My car is chipped. The "fooling the engine into thinking it's cold" thing is not really true.
Chips do one thing, and that's alter the timing and mixture at a given throttle position. There are two ways chips can alter performance. One is by removing the timing and mixture accommodations Porsche makes for the use of regular fuel (this is why you have to run premium after installing most ECU flashes). The other is by getting rid of the settings that allow the car to pass the EPA's urban drive cycle. Some flash products also raise the redline slightly, which would be helpful on a track car where delaying an upshift even a little can make a big difference.
There is no doubt that a good ECU flash will improve performance on paper, no matter what the skeptics say, especially if you do other things at the same time. But, speaking from experience, the improvement is very, very slight, and you notice it for about a week after which it becomes "normal". I think on a track car, there could be a few hundredths in it for a well set up car, but honestly, few of us are driving at that level.
You will sometimes hear people say that the difference an ECU flash made was "huge". It can feel that way, and here's why I think that is: this engine's adaptive ability seems, to the seat of my pants, to have exceptional range. If you drive your car in the city most of the time, take it out for an hour or two on the open road and thrash it. When you come back, you'll find the throttle seems smoother and more responsive, and the car is noticeably perkier. You'll hear modders delighted with intakes, exhausts and chips, when at least some of the reason is that they simply drove their cars harder after they installed them. This was roughly the magnitude of the change I noticed when I flashed my ECU. In other words, most of us will get the same kind of seat of the pants gain just by driving our cars harder.
The benefit that lasted, from my point of view, was what DreamCarrera called throttle response. In fact, an ECU flash won't improve throttle response in the technical sense (you can buy other widgets that do this), but it feels that way because it eliminates the off-idle flat spot that I think is there as a byproduct of emissions compliance. As a package, I totally enjoy my ECU flash/intake/plenum/exhaust combo, but I will never claim it was worth the money.
Chips do one thing, and that's alter the timing and mixture at a given throttle position. There are two ways chips can alter performance. One is by removing the timing and mixture accommodations Porsche makes for the use of regular fuel (this is why you have to run premium after installing most ECU flashes). The other is by getting rid of the settings that allow the car to pass the EPA's urban drive cycle. Some flash products also raise the redline slightly, which would be helpful on a track car where delaying an upshift even a little can make a big difference.
There is no doubt that a good ECU flash will improve performance on paper, no matter what the skeptics say, especially if you do other things at the same time. But, speaking from experience, the improvement is very, very slight, and you notice it for about a week after which it becomes "normal". I think on a track car, there could be a few hundredths in it for a well set up car, but honestly, few of us are driving at that level.
You will sometimes hear people say that the difference an ECU flash made was "huge". It can feel that way, and here's why I think that is: this engine's adaptive ability seems, to the seat of my pants, to have exceptional range. If you drive your car in the city most of the time, take it out for an hour or two on the open road and thrash it. When you come back, you'll find the throttle seems smoother and more responsive, and the car is noticeably perkier. You'll hear modders delighted with intakes, exhausts and chips, when at least some of the reason is that they simply drove their cars harder after they installed them. This was roughly the magnitude of the change I noticed when I flashed my ECU. In other words, most of us will get the same kind of seat of the pants gain just by driving our cars harder.
The benefit that lasted, from my point of view, was what DreamCarrera called throttle response. In fact, an ECU flash won't improve throttle response in the technical sense (you can buy other widgets that do this), but it feels that way because it eliminates the off-idle flat spot that I think is there as a byproduct of emissions compliance. As a package, I totally enjoy my ECU flash/intake/plenum/exhaust combo, but I will never claim it was worth the money.
02-15-2012, 11:29 PM
#17
Drifting
The only way you would want to spend the money asked by most of these vendors is if you had a car with fuel cut off or a rev limited 'speed limit' programed into the factory ECU. Most of these chip makers program out the speed limiting cut off points - but not all of them - you have to ask as the liability lawyers warn them not to offer this feature or advertise it.
As one poster here mentioned, it also kills your chances at passing air testing unless you can swap out chips back to the OEM. There is new testing (software) coming soon to my jurisdiction that when plugged in to the OB2 port will flag a non-OEM ECU updates that will void the test. Supposedly it is coming in two years time and will be retroactive to all models with OB2. If this becomes widespread it could kill off the chip programers unless they provide cheap and easy ways to do OEM reverts.
You'd get better acceleration response by reducing weight, say no spare tire up front, lighter battery - then hundreds of dollars on someone adjusting out the 'safe' limits to your ECU programing to a razor edge limit.
A very fast pro driver once told me he could make my car way faster around the track for very little dollars - like 5-6 seconds faster for a few hundred bucks. I'm all ears now. I ask how? He says 'driver coaching'. Point taken I replied.
As one poster here mentioned, it also kills your chances at passing air testing unless you can swap out chips back to the OEM. There is new testing (software) coming soon to my jurisdiction that when plugged in to the OB2 port will flag a non-OEM ECU updates that will void the test. Supposedly it is coming in two years time and will be retroactive to all models with OB2. If this becomes widespread it could kill off the chip programers unless they provide cheap and easy ways to do OEM reverts.
You'd get better acceleration response by reducing weight, say no spare tire up front, lighter battery - then hundreds of dollars on someone adjusting out the 'safe' limits to your ECU programing to a razor edge limit.
A very fast pro driver once told me he could make my car way faster around the track for very little dollars - like 5-6 seconds faster for a few hundred bucks. I'm all ears now. I ask how? He says 'driver coaching'. Point taken I replied.
02-16-2012, 12:33 AM
#18
I live where you live, and this seems like an odd story to me. For one thing, chips aren't physical in OBD2 cars. It's a flash overwrite. For another, car companies update their software all the time. I can't imagine the effort it would take to get every car company to agree to 'mark' their software updates so a provincial government smog test can recognize them. Especially when all the government cares about is whether the car runs clean or not, which they're already testing for.
My car passes Ontario emissions with flying colours. This past spring, it actually produced better results than it did when I bought it and before I modded it. Running on ethanol free premium fuel and well warmed up, this is a very clean running car, chip or no. And, in any case, the pass/fail standard takes into account cars that are a lot older than ours. I don't think this is anything to worry about.
My car passes Ontario emissions with flying colours. This past spring, it actually produced better results than it did when I bought it and before I modded it. Running on ethanol free premium fuel and well warmed up, this is a very clean running car, chip or no. And, in any case, the pass/fail standard takes into account cars that are a lot older than ours. I don't think this is anything to worry about.
02-16-2012, 03:50 AM
#20
Drifting
Way off topic alert. But because you asked Bruce: 
The plug in is via OB2 but the software rev is 'readable'. Very few cars unless they are recalled for an ECU issue ever get a new flash. I've owned many cars and never once had the eprom pulled and reflashed. There are very few manufacturers that (using their proprietary testing software) cannot spot an altered program. I know for a fact that GM has voided warranties over non approved 'tampering' and I suspect Porsche has the ability to do this as well.
Many chip's disable the EGR or air secondary injectors for added performance - this would show up as not functional. Certainly running in a rich state is a dead giveaway.
The following was taken from a paper supporting changing from current tailpipe testing to OB2 testing:
It's partly driven by consumer complaints of being ripped off over fake repairs; OB2 testing does not require the expensive testing equipment and facilities as tailpipe testing; and the current leasing agreements for this testing equipment is coming up for renewal in the next few years, (In Ontario).
BC is currently doing overlap testing - they do both OB2 and tailpipe (IM240) to gather data for both Transport Canada and the EPA. You only pass or fail currently on the tailpipe test but the data is compared between both tests. There is also a US State doing the same with the results shared with TC, CARB the EPA.
The current issue is with the number of pre-OB2 cars on the road - they still require the tailpipe testing. In Canada it's pretty much any car under 1998, certainly all of them under 1996.
As you quite rightly pointed out Bruce, today's cars are putting out air that is cleaner out the tailpipe then just about what went in the intake - or it seems anyway when you look at the test scores of properly serviced modern cars. That is driving the Governments thinking in trying to find a better, easier and cheaper way to test cars. There has been a lot of poor public support lately for testing that is seen as a money grabbing tax on proper running cars. So if Governments can find a way to lower costs in a large way for them and a small way for us, then that's the thinking.
Chipping the car, 'cheats' the system if we were to use OB2 testing so therefore Governments are going to go straight to manufactures and force them to set the ECU interrogation parameters so that testing software can audit the ECU for unapproved changes.
As I stated, Ontario is 'thinking' of this as the future for the Clean Air program - a program they cannot kill off even if it is doing useless testing on today's cars. The headlines by various 'Green' groups would be along the lines of, "No more clean cars in Ontario"! You know how they work.
Another reason why Governments want OB2 testing instead of tailpipe:
As to can anyone SEE you've chipped your car...
I live where you live, and this seems like an odd story to me. For one thing, chips aren't physical in OBD2 cars. It's a flash overwrite. For another, car companies update their software all the time. I can't imagine the effort it would take to get every car company to agree to 'mark' their software updates so a provincial government smog test can recognize them. Especially when all the government cares about is whether the car runs clean or not, which they're already testing for.
Many chip's disable the EGR or air secondary injectors for added performance - this would show up as not functional. Certainly running in a rich state is a dead giveaway.
The following was taken from a paper supporting changing from current tailpipe testing to OB2 testing:
In other words, OBD II identifies individual failures of components on a vehicle whereas IM240 identifies the cumulative impact of all failures or deterioration currently on the vehicle.
A major difference between an OBD II test and a tailpipe emissions test such as the IM240 is the impact that they have on the repair industry. While an IM 240 emissions test may identify a vehicle with excess emissions, the repairs required to reduce those emissions are not set but largely left to the discretion of the repair technician. However, the repairs required to correct an OBD II failure are more fixed.
A major difference between an OBD II test and a tailpipe emissions test such as the IM240 is the impact that they have on the repair industry. While an IM 240 emissions test may identify a vehicle with excess emissions, the repairs required to reduce those emissions are not set but largely left to the discretion of the repair technician. However, the repairs required to correct an OBD II failure are more fixed.
BC is currently doing overlap testing - they do both OB2 and tailpipe (IM240) to gather data for both Transport Canada and the EPA. You only pass or fail currently on the tailpipe test but the data is compared between both tests. There is also a US State doing the same with the results shared with TC, CARB the EPA.
The current issue is with the number of pre-OB2 cars on the road - they still require the tailpipe testing. In Canada it's pretty much any car under 1998, certainly all of them under 1996.
As you quite rightly pointed out Bruce, today's cars are putting out air that is cleaner out the tailpipe then just about what went in the intake - or it seems anyway when you look at the test scores of properly serviced modern cars. That is driving the Governments thinking in trying to find a better, easier and cheaper way to test cars. There has been a lot of poor public support lately for testing that is seen as a money grabbing tax on proper running cars. So if Governments can find a way to lower costs in a large way for them and a small way for us, then that's the thinking.
Chipping the car, 'cheats' the system if we were to use OB2 testing so therefore Governments are going to go straight to manufactures and force them to set the ECU interrogation parameters so that testing software can audit the ECU for unapproved changes.
As I stated, Ontario is 'thinking' of this as the future for the Clean Air program - a program they cannot kill off even if it is doing useless testing on today's cars. The headlines by various 'Green' groups would be along the lines of, "No more clean cars in Ontario"! You know how they work.
Another reason why Governments want OB2 testing instead of tailpipe:
Administrators in I/M programs based on a tailpipe exhaust emissions test are familiar with the practice referred to as 'clean-piping'. This form of fraud is when a 'clean' vehicle is tested, but vehicle identification information for a 'dirty' vehicle is entered into the test record. The 'dirty' vehicle then passes the test and is neither tested nor repaired. Similarly, inspectors performing an OBD II test can 'clean-scan' an OBD-equipped vehicle. The EPA feels that the opportunity for 'clean-scanning' exists because the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) is not currently included in the data stored in the vehicle's onboard computer. (Sosnowski 2001)
In an effort to foil this practice, CARB is adding a Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) requirement to OBD II systems as of model year 2005 and all manufacturers currently certify to CARB requirements. Having the VIN downloaded, as part of an OBD II interrogation, will make vehicle switching for clean-scanning during inspections much more difficult. (CAAAC 2002)
In an effort to foil this practice, CARB is adding a Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) requirement to OBD II systems as of model year 2005 and all manufacturers currently certify to CARB requirements. Having the VIN downloaded, as part of an OBD II interrogation, will make vehicle switching for clean-scanning during inspections much more difficult. (CAAAC 2002)
As to can anyone SEE you've chipped your car...
The CARB OBD II I/M test flow chart contains suggestions for two checks that are designed to assist in the detection of vehicles that may have undergone either a 'clean-scan' or that may have tampered or corrupted OBD II system software. (McCarthy 2002-1, McCarthy 2004)
CAL ID is a calibration identification number (similar to a software version number) for the software and calibration installed in a vehicle's ECU. CAL ID indicates the exact emission software/calibration set installed in a vehicle.
CVN is the calibration verification number and is the result of a type of 'check-sum' calculation performed on the calibration values stored in a vehicle's ECU. If the calibration values have not been changed or corrupted, the CVN will always provide the same sum for a given software calibration
set in an ECU. If somebody has modified or corrupted any of the calibration values, the CVN calculation will generate an incorrect 'sum'.
CAL ID looks to see if the correct software is installed in the inspected vehicle and CVN verifies the software has not been corrupted or altered. A given CAL ID will have a given CVN.
All OBDII equipped vehicles (California and EPA) will support CAL ID and CVN. CAL ID was required by the 2002 MY, and CVN will be required by 2005 MY.
These two values can be downloaded and recorded at the time of inspection and then be used to look for signs of tampering and fraud. While CAL ID is not the complete solution in regard to preventing 'clean-scanning', it should at least ensure that the vehicle scanned is of the correct make, model and engine type.
CAL ID is a calibration identification number (similar to a software version number) for the software and calibration installed in a vehicle's ECU. CAL ID indicates the exact emission software/calibration set installed in a vehicle.
CVN is the calibration verification number and is the result of a type of 'check-sum' calculation performed on the calibration values stored in a vehicle's ECU. If the calibration values have not been changed or corrupted, the CVN will always provide the same sum for a given software calibration
set in an ECU. If somebody has modified or corrupted any of the calibration values, the CVN calculation will generate an incorrect 'sum'.
CAL ID looks to see if the correct software is installed in the inspected vehicle and CVN verifies the software has not been corrupted or altered. A given CAL ID will have a given CVN.
All OBDII equipped vehicles (California and EPA) will support CAL ID and CVN. CAL ID was required by the 2002 MY, and CVN will be required by 2005 MY.
These two values can be downloaded and recorded at the time of inspection and then be used to look for signs of tampering and fraud. While CAL ID is not the complete solution in regard to preventing 'clean-scanning', it should at least ensure that the vehicle scanned is of the correct make, model and engine type.
Last edited by Torontoworker; 02-16-2012 at 03:53 AM. Reason: Spelling
02-16-2012, 09:08 AM
#21
You must live in a magical world, where resistors can be installed through OBD ports, and cold cars make more power than warm ones do. Send us a postcard, won't you?
02-16-2012, 09:37 AM
#22
Torontoworker, the new piece of information here, for me, is that CARB required exactly the 'marking' I was talking about. I wasn't aware of this, and you can understand why: the tuning business in California has been doing just fine since 2005. It hasn't been an issue so far, and California-legal claims have been made for ECU flashes all over the place (granting they're just claims). Some OEMs even offer flashes themselves, suggesting that it's possible to write the code without creating the check-sum issues you mention here. In fact, there seems to be a lot of headroom for modding even under California law, when you consider, for example, that I can go to a Toyota dealer and get a California legal supercharger, intake and exhaust bolted on, complete with a fresh ECU flash to deal with the supercharger. So I don't know how much of a concern this really is (and it's obviously no concern at all if your car is older than 2005). Bear in mind, the source of your information is an advocate for the OBD solution. If other green debates are any indication, not every advocacy group can be relied on to present the whole story. But don't get me started on the Ontario government... 
As an aside, I think ECU updates are a little more common than you might think. Both of our other cars have had them via TSBs (my truck, and my wife's MINI). Nothing needs to be "pulled". They just plug into the OBD port and upload.
What will be interesting to see in all this is where privacy fits. The data on your ECU is coveted by insurance companies, and there have already been some interesting court precedents about who has the right to it. I advised a PAYD startup last year who used an OBD plug-in module with GPS to monitor a car's movements and condition. Creepy.
Anyway, thanks for your detailed reply.
As an aside, I think ECU updates are a little more common than you might think. Both of our other cars have had them via TSBs (my truck, and my wife's MINI). Nothing needs to be "pulled". They just plug into the OBD port and upload.
What will be interesting to see in all this is where privacy fits. The data on your ECU is coveted by insurance companies, and there have already been some interesting court precedents about who has the right to it. I advised a PAYD startup last year who used an OBD plug-in module with GPS to monitor a car's movements and condition. Creepy.
Anyway, thanks for your detailed reply.
02-17-2012, 12:53 AM
#23
Have you seen this? click on the picture
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320632328237&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en#ht_1823wt_1144
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320632328237&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en#ht_1823wt_1144
02-17-2012, 12:56 AM
#24
Also, I had a similar question not long ago, and a forum member had this answer for me... I found it very informative:
"Modern engines with their electronic engine management, fueling, sparking, etc. are quite able to adapt to a pretty amazing set of conditions.
For just a muffler swap unlikely any tweaking of the fuel maps/timing maps are necessary. The range of adaptation that exists will suffice.
The DME will adapt and fueling will be ok. Timing runs as advanced as it can run which is often just short of producing detonation.
Where a custom flash might be necessary is if the exhaust system (and this mod is accompanied by intake system changes) is sufficiently different that flow through the engine is different enough that the stock flash's assumptions about variable valve timing, variable valve lift, intake resonance control, things like this, need to be tweaked to derive max. benefit from the other mods.
What you can do is of course consult with the exhaust (muffler) maker and see what if any recommendations it has. If any are required one would have to believe the product's maker would be willing to share this so max. benefit form this add-on in to be had by the customer.
Additionally, you can seek out a shop that can test the air/fuel ratios (4-gas exhaust analyzer?) so see if the engine's DME needs tweaking.
Sincerely,
Macster."
"Modern engines with their electronic engine management, fueling, sparking, etc. are quite able to adapt to a pretty amazing set of conditions.
For just a muffler swap unlikely any tweaking of the fuel maps/timing maps are necessary. The range of adaptation that exists will suffice.
The DME will adapt and fueling will be ok. Timing runs as advanced as it can run which is often just short of producing detonation.
Where a custom flash might be necessary is if the exhaust system (and this mod is accompanied by intake system changes) is sufficiently different that flow through the engine is different enough that the stock flash's assumptions about variable valve timing, variable valve lift, intake resonance control, things like this, need to be tweaked to derive max. benefit from the other mods.
What you can do is of course consult with the exhaust (muffler) maker and see what if any recommendations it has. If any are required one would have to believe the product's maker would be willing to share this so max. benefit form this add-on in to be had by the customer.
Additionally, you can seek out a shop that can test the air/fuel ratios (4-gas exhaust analyzer?) so see if the engine's DME needs tweaking.
Sincerely,
Macster."
02-17-2012, 02:18 AM
#25
Pro
WOW, & its from vividracing (on a dyno) looks legit, wonder if we could get a price break if we had enough that wanted one! Does anybody know anything about them, first time I've ever seen that one. And I've always been a big believer that they were all just gimmicks! Could this one be any different.
02-17-2012, 02:27 PM
#27
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
+1 there. My 7.3 F350 gained a ton of HP and Torque with a piggyback computer. IIRC, the gain was 60 hp and about 100ft-lbs. This was a turbo of course, to engine longevity was probably compromised a bit. That truck would haul 15,000 lbs up a decent grade without missing a beat.
02-18-2012, 06:18 PM
#28
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I am really glad that I started this thread. The reference to Vivid Racing opend my eyes and I beg to ask the question, "Is 22HP worth $895.00?"
I think I will look into investing into a GT2 wing
I think I will look into investing into a GT2 wing
02-18-2012, 09:33 PM
#29
Race Director
My car is chipped. The "fooling the engine into thinking it's cold" thing is not really true.
Chips do one thing, and that's alter the timing and mixture at a given throttle position. There are two ways chips can alter performance. One is by removing the timing and mixture accommodations Porsche makes for the use of regular fuel (this is why you have to run premium after installing most ECU flashes). The other is by getting rid of the settings that allow the car to pass the EPA's urban drive cycle. Some flash products also raise the redline slightly, which would be helpful on a track car where delaying an upshift even a little can make a big difference.
There is no doubt that a good ECU flash will improve performance on paper, no matter what the skeptics say, especially if you do other things at the same time. But, speaking from experience, the improvement is very, very slight, and you notice it for about a week after which it becomes "normal". I think on a track car, there could be a few hundredths in it for a well set up car, but honestly, few of us are driving at that level.
You will sometimes hear people say that the difference an ECU flash made was "huge". It can feel that way, and here's why I think that is: this engine's adaptive ability seems, to the seat of my pants, to have exceptional range. If you drive your car in the city most of the time, take it out for an hour or two on the open road and thrash it. When you come back, you'll find the throttle seems smoother and more responsive, and the car is noticeably perkier. You'll hear modders delighted with intakes, exhausts and chips, when at least some of the reason is that they simply drove their cars harder after they installed them. This was roughly the magnitude of the change I noticed when I flashed my ECU. In other words, most of us will get the same kind of seat of the pants gain just by driving our cars harder.
The benefit that lasted, from my point of view, was what DreamCarrera called throttle response. In fact, an ECU flash won't improve throttle response in the technical sense (you can buy other widgets that do this), but it feels that way because it eliminates the off-idle flat spot that I think is there as a byproduct of emissions compliance. As a package, I totally enjoy my ECU flash/intake/plenum/exhaust combo, but I will never claim it was worth the money.
Chips do one thing, and that's alter the timing and mixture at a given throttle position. There are two ways chips can alter performance. One is by removing the timing and mixture accommodations Porsche makes for the use of regular fuel (this is why you have to run premium after installing most ECU flashes). The other is by getting rid of the settings that allow the car to pass the EPA's urban drive cycle. Some flash products also raise the redline slightly, which would be helpful on a track car where delaying an upshift even a little can make a big difference.
There is no doubt that a good ECU flash will improve performance on paper, no matter what the skeptics say, especially if you do other things at the same time. But, speaking from experience, the improvement is very, very slight, and you notice it for about a week after which it becomes "normal". I think on a track car, there could be a few hundredths in it for a well set up car, but honestly, few of us are driving at that level.
You will sometimes hear people say that the difference an ECU flash made was "huge". It can feel that way, and here's why I think that is: this engine's adaptive ability seems, to the seat of my pants, to have exceptional range. If you drive your car in the city most of the time, take it out for an hour or two on the open road and thrash it. When you come back, you'll find the throttle seems smoother and more responsive, and the car is noticeably perkier. You'll hear modders delighted with intakes, exhausts and chips, when at least some of the reason is that they simply drove their cars harder after they installed them. This was roughly the magnitude of the change I noticed when I flashed my ECU. In other words, most of us will get the same kind of seat of the pants gain just by driving our cars harder.
The benefit that lasted, from my point of view, was what DreamCarrera called throttle response. In fact, an ECU flash won't improve throttle response in the technical sense (you can buy other widgets that do this), but it feels that way because it eliminates the off-idle flat spot that I think is there as a byproduct of emissions compliance. As a package, I totally enjoy my ECU flash/intake/plenum/exhaust combo, but I will never claim it was worth the money.
02-18-2012, 10:46 PM
#30
Drifting
Join Date: Mar 2011
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My personal experience with chipping NA vehicles has been less than impressive. You can pick up modest performance improvements, but usually at the expense of something else like coils.
Turbos are a different matter. You can really really get some significant improvements in a boosted vehicle with minimal risk to other components as long as you can deal with heat evacuation.
Turbos are a different matter. You can really really get some significant improvements in a boosted vehicle with minimal risk to other components as long as you can deal with heat evacuation.