1 rebuilt engine, 1 month, and 325 pictures later
07-15-2011, 12:07 PM
#31
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Would I have opened it? Possibly and I may go there at some point down the road if the smoke and oil consumption returns. I would also strongly consider outsourcing that work.
If your crank, bores, and pistons are within tolerance and undamaged, and it was just opening up to replace rings, bearings, and so forth it would probably add another ~$1000 in parts. Of course the trained eye might see more that is wrong and would require more parts. Not to mention as Jake pointed out barely any of the specifications are published anywhere, so you are probably better off sending it out to get this work done anyhow.
But to me the economics for the ordinary driver past the above don't make much sense...
If it needs to be "rebored", the block would need to go out to LN for Nickies and larger JE pistons ($4000), or some alternative if there is one out there - I've heard there might be some European companies with alternatives.
If the crankshaft is bad, it needs to be replaced ($3300 OEM, $5500 flat 6 billet).
So at that point, with either one of those options plus the head rebuild you are well up into the ballpark or over the cost of a replacement engine (of course not one that has "Nickied").
So to me it wouldn't make sense to crack it open unless you are building a race car OR have an endless budget OR you know what you have to work with is already sound.
These are just opinions though on the matter. Again I'm just an enthusiast and not and expert, so others probably have more seasoned alternative views.
08-24-2011, 08:12 PM
#33
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
500 Mile Report.
The car is a joy to drive. So much power. Idles very smooth too.
When it rains it pours though. Right after I installed the engine I tested the variocam actuators with Durametric. Both banks worked, however shortly thereafter I couldn't activate bank 1 when I tried it a second time and got a P1531 code. I ohmed out the solenoid and it read near 0. Whereas bank 2 read over 13. So out came the engine again to replace the solenoid. Engine installed a second time and I've put 500 miles on the car since.
Oil consumption seems to be near zilch at this point, wheras before I would have blown through perhaps 1/2 quart at 500 miles.
One outstanding problem though. Bank 1 is accumulating more soot in the tailpipe (signifigantly more) than bank 2. In fact, the right tail pipe is pretty much black with soot (I had cleaned during the rebuild) whereas the left tail pipe is basically clean. This problem was devleoping before the top end rebuild and it doesn't seem to have changed afterwards. Yeah yeah, what does soot matter anyways - if the car runs great who cares, right? But I am concerned that the two banks are developing soot at a different rate.
Cylinders were very smooth when I had the heads off. Could not see or feel any imperfections (of course that doesn't mean they weren't oval, which I did not measure...). But I sorta took a gamble the purple smoke (now gone) was going to be the in heads anyways... (which several valve guides were found to be shot).
So thinking perhaps the soot build up could be worn rings on one or more cylinders in bank 1 since I had just done the top end, must be the other end right? The out of spec valve guides and all the valve seals were replaced during the valve job (not to mention 3 way valve cuts to ensure perfect seating)... so pretty confident where the air would leak out...
I decided to do a leakdown and compression test. Warmed up the car and proceeded to get the results. Much to my surprise...
Leakdown (in each cylinder the air was leaking through the oil filler tube indicating worn rings, not a hint of air from the top or bottom end).
1 = 23%, 2 = 24%, 3 = 24%
4 = 25%, 5 = 25%, 6 = 26%
Not too bad for an engine with 75,000 miles on it. Not that good either, but probably not a reason to tear into it again at this point, looks like the rings have a few more miles in them. At least it shows even wear and the engine still performs well.
Compression
1 = 155, 2 = 154, 3 = 150
4 = 149, 5 = 149, 6 = 149
And when pulling the plugs ALL of bank 1's plugs (cyl 1-3) look identical to this.
Whereas ALL of bank 2's plugs look identical to this.
Pulled the headers and the exhaust side of bank 1's head is all black and sooty after only 500 miles already whereas bank 2's head is relatively clean (albeit not sparkling like it was after the valve job).
So now I am a little stumped, perhaps it is due to a fuel delivery problem?
I thought perhaps the MAF could cause this, but then I should see consistency between both banks. Found a great thread on the subject, however again the problem here is with 1 bank and not both.
http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic...el-air-mixture
Perhaps it could be O2 sensors, however they are all brand new (and same problem with the old ones).
When I did the rebuild I had all the injectors sent off, tested, cleaned, and orings/filters replaced. I also cleaned the fuel rails as best I could with compressed air - there were no apparent blockages.
I seem to remember that the design of the fuel rails might have changed with later model year cars. Perhaps this is just how the 1999 model M96-01 runs? A little richer on bank 1 than bank 2? Anyone else notice this?
Pulled out the Durametric to log some data. Any more data you would like to see?
At idle and up to about 3000 RPM FRA for bank 1 and 2 is 1.04.
Above 4000 RPM FRA goes to .98 for both banks
TRA for bank 1 is always -0.14 and for bank 2 -0.17
Hot film MAF 1.3 volts at 680 rpm idle, and 17kg air mass. On up to 500kg at 6000 RPM and 3.41 volts. (MAF was cleaned w/CRC cleaner during rebuild).
How do I explain this soot buildup in bank 1 but not bank 2 ???? It's driving me crazy !!!!!!
Brand new AOS dumping oil into the intake on bank 1 ???? (third AOS on this car). I meticulously cleaned all of the AOS tubes and completely overhauled the SAI system to boot.
Then again, perhaps I should just ignore the soot and keep driving it. At least I'm sure that would be the advice of some... but I can't seem to ignore it after sooooo much hard work.
One of my favorite quotes from this great thread is from Macster:
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...l-or-fuel.html
"For street cars as long as the engine's running ok, the CEL is not on, flashing, the engine exhibits no untoward behavior, oil consumption is within the allowed range, fuel consumption is in expected range, and coolant is not disappearing into the engine, the exhaust tips could be plaid for all that it matters."
Bank 1 Tail Pipe (looks blacker in person, camera is brightening it up)
Bank 2 Tail Pipe
The car is a joy to drive. So much power. Idles very smooth too.
When it rains it pours though. Right after I installed the engine I tested the variocam actuators with Durametric. Both banks worked, however shortly thereafter I couldn't activate bank 1 when I tried it a second time and got a P1531 code. I ohmed out the solenoid and it read near 0. Whereas bank 2 read over 13. So out came the engine again to replace the solenoid. Engine installed a second time and I've put 500 miles on the car since.
Oil consumption seems to be near zilch at this point, wheras before I would have blown through perhaps 1/2 quart at 500 miles.
One outstanding problem though. Bank 1 is accumulating more soot in the tailpipe (signifigantly more) than bank 2. In fact, the right tail pipe is pretty much black with soot (I had cleaned during the rebuild) whereas the left tail pipe is basically clean. This problem was devleoping before the top end rebuild and it doesn't seem to have changed afterwards. Yeah yeah, what does soot matter anyways - if the car runs great who cares, right? But I am concerned that the two banks are developing soot at a different rate.
Cylinders were very smooth when I had the heads off. Could not see or feel any imperfections (of course that doesn't mean they weren't oval, which I did not measure...). But I sorta took a gamble the purple smoke (now gone) was going to be the in heads anyways... (which several valve guides were found to be shot).
So thinking perhaps the soot build up could be worn rings on one or more cylinders in bank 1 since I had just done the top end, must be the other end right? The out of spec valve guides and all the valve seals were replaced during the valve job (not to mention 3 way valve cuts to ensure perfect seating)... so pretty confident where the air would leak out...
I decided to do a leakdown and compression test. Warmed up the car and proceeded to get the results. Much to my surprise...
Leakdown (in each cylinder the air was leaking through the oil filler tube indicating worn rings, not a hint of air from the top or bottom end).
1 = 23%, 2 = 24%, 3 = 24%
4 = 25%, 5 = 25%, 6 = 26%
Not too bad for an engine with 75,000 miles on it. Not that good either, but probably not a reason to tear into it again at this point, looks like the rings have a few more miles in them. At least it shows even wear and the engine still performs well.
Compression
1 = 155, 2 = 154, 3 = 150
4 = 149, 5 = 149, 6 = 149
And when pulling the plugs ALL of bank 1's plugs (cyl 1-3) look identical to this.
Whereas ALL of bank 2's plugs look identical to this.
Pulled the headers and the exhaust side of bank 1's head is all black and sooty after only 500 miles already whereas bank 2's head is relatively clean (albeit not sparkling like it was after the valve job).
So now I am a little stumped, perhaps it is due to a fuel delivery problem?
I thought perhaps the MAF could cause this, but then I should see consistency between both banks. Found a great thread on the subject, however again the problem here is with 1 bank and not both.
http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic...el-air-mixture
Perhaps it could be O2 sensors, however they are all brand new (and same problem with the old ones).
When I did the rebuild I had all the injectors sent off, tested, cleaned, and orings/filters replaced. I also cleaned the fuel rails as best I could with compressed air - there were no apparent blockages.
I seem to remember that the design of the fuel rails might have changed with later model year cars. Perhaps this is just how the 1999 model M96-01 runs? A little richer on bank 1 than bank 2? Anyone else notice this?
Pulled out the Durametric to log some data. Any more data you would like to see?
At idle and up to about 3000 RPM FRA for bank 1 and 2 is 1.04.
Above 4000 RPM FRA goes to .98 for both banks
TRA for bank 1 is always -0.14 and for bank 2 -0.17
Hot film MAF 1.3 volts at 680 rpm idle, and 17kg air mass. On up to 500kg at 6000 RPM and 3.41 volts. (MAF was cleaned w/CRC cleaner during rebuild).
How do I explain this soot buildup in bank 1 but not bank 2 ???? It's driving me crazy !!!!!!
Brand new AOS dumping oil into the intake on bank 1 ???? (third AOS on this car). I meticulously cleaned all of the AOS tubes and completely overhauled the SAI system to boot.
Then again, perhaps I should just ignore the soot and keep driving it. At least I'm sure that would be the advice of some... but I can't seem to ignore it after sooooo much hard work.
One of my favorite quotes from this great thread is from Macster:
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...l-or-fuel.html
"For street cars as long as the engine's running ok, the CEL is not on, flashing, the engine exhibits no untoward behavior, oil consumption is within the allowed range, fuel consumption is in expected range, and coolant is not disappearing into the engine, the exhaust tips could be plaid for all that it matters."
Bank 1 Tail Pipe (looks blacker in person, camera is brightening it up)
Bank 2 Tail Pipe
08-24-2011, 10:03 PM
#34
It's obvisouly bank 1 is burning some contaniments to produce that extra sout. you had the heads off right? Is it possible the seal isn't good?
After 500 miles, any change in your coolant level? (you already said the oil hasn't moved)
After 500 miles, any change in your coolant level? (you already said the oil hasn't moved)
08-24-2011, 10:23 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Hey Sean,
I'm pretty confident the head gasket seal is good. I used acetone and lint free wipes to ensure no debris on any of the surfaces. I followed the factory specs for torque and ordered new head bolts that were lightly oiled before installation. No leaks externally around the head gasket. Also if there was a leak on the head gasket I think I would see that show up somewhere on the leakdown test.
No change in coolant level and no sign of oil in the coolant.
Thanks.
p.s. any news on your car? Did you get it back yet?
edit: oh forgot to mention this problem started about 1.5 years ago before the top end repairs (well after your cats were pulled as they had been sitting in storage for years BTW
).
I'm pretty confident the head gasket seal is good. I used acetone and lint free wipes to ensure no debris on any of the surfaces. I followed the factory specs for torque and ordered new head bolts that were lightly oiled before installation. No leaks externally around the head gasket. Also if there was a leak on the head gasket I think I would see that show up somewhere on the leakdown test.
No change in coolant level and no sign of oil in the coolant.
Thanks.
p.s. any news on your car? Did you get it back yet?
edit: oh forgot to mention this problem started about 1.5 years ago before the top end repairs (well after your cats were pulled as they had been sitting in storage for years BTW
).
08-25-2011, 02:29 AM
#36
Pro
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So, logray, have you seen those autofarm 3.7l cylinders 
I think that you are just trying to convince your self that the car need's new block
Just kidding, my car runs a bit too rich on both banks.
I think that you are just trying to convince your self that the car need's new block
Just kidding, my car runs a bit too rich on both banks.
08-25-2011, 12:09 PM
#37
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Hah you know me too well speed rII. While that is in this engines future, I don't think just yet...
I would like to get to the source of this soot though. Seems odd according to leakdown test if cylinder and/or piston/ring wear is similar on bank 2 why am I not seeing soot from that tailpipe too? Almost makes me think if I went ahead and put in new rings and sleeves I would still see the soot.
Someone on RT mentioned fuel vacuum or return line but not sure where they're going with that yet.
I would like to get to the source of this soot though. Seems odd according to leakdown test if cylinder and/or piston/ring wear is similar on bank 2 why am I not seeing soot from that tailpipe too? Almost makes me think if I went ahead and put in new rings and sleeves I would still see the soot.
Someone on RT mentioned fuel vacuum or return line but not sure where they're going with that yet.
Last edited by logray; 08-25-2011 at 12:43 PM.
08-25-2011, 06:19 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
.........news flash.........
Could this soot be related to timing and/or a faulty variocam actuator?
Reason being, shortly after I reinstalled the eninge, I had a P1531. The solenoid/actuator failed to activate using Durametric. The solenoid read near 0 ohms with the multi meter. So I dropped the engine again and replaced the solenoid with a used unit.
After 500 miles hooked up the Durametric and P1531 was stored, but hasn't set the CEL yet. Cleared it, took it for a drive, P1531 set again.
Sh**. Pardon me. This is getting silly.
So, out comes the mutli meter again. The "used" solenoid I put in ohms out fine now.
Swapped cam positions sensors between banks. (PITA)
P1531 (174) code still sets after it's cleared.
What's strange though is now I can activate both banks and the idle changes noticeably. Too bad I don't have a newer Motronic, I could monitor actual angles as well.
Checked the wiring and it is good (in fact I even did some repairs to it after second the engine drop, noticed one of the wires was kinked so I spliced and re-soldered VERY carefully (I do a lot of soldering).
So I am thinking the actuator is faulty at this point???
Perhaps it has been marginal for a long time and is either sticking either open or closed and hasn't been actuating as it should.
Maybe this causes a difference in timing, perhaps leading to slightly different valve opening/closing resulting in less than 100% fuel burn off leading to soot in all of bank 1? Grasping with that theory I suppose.
Or perhaps the used solenoid I installed was also bad or on it's way out.
On a 3.4L does anyone know if the DME is smart enough to disable variocam actuation on both banks if it sees a cam activation issue.. to support my theory above ?
BACK into the engine again after I source some more PARTS. Yay.
Could this soot be related to timing and/or a faulty variocam actuator?
Reason being, shortly after I reinstalled the eninge, I had a P1531. The solenoid/actuator failed to activate using Durametric. The solenoid read near 0 ohms with the multi meter. So I dropped the engine again and replaced the solenoid with a used unit.
After 500 miles hooked up the Durametric and P1531 was stored, but hasn't set the CEL yet. Cleared it, took it for a drive, P1531 set again.
Sh**. Pardon me. This is getting silly.
So, out comes the mutli meter again. The "used" solenoid I put in ohms out fine now.
Swapped cam positions sensors between banks. (PITA)
P1531 (174) code still sets after it's cleared.
What's strange though is now I can activate both banks and the idle changes noticeably. Too bad I don't have a newer Motronic, I could monitor actual angles as well.
Checked the wiring and it is good (in fact I even did some repairs to it after second the engine drop, noticed one of the wires was kinked so I spliced and re-soldered VERY carefully (I do a lot of soldering).
So I am thinking the actuator is faulty at this point???
Perhaps it has been marginal for a long time and is either sticking either open or closed and hasn't been actuating as it should.
Maybe this causes a difference in timing, perhaps leading to slightly different valve opening/closing resulting in less than 100% fuel burn off leading to soot in all of bank 1? Grasping with that theory I suppose.
Or perhaps the used solenoid I installed was also bad or on it's way out.
On a 3.4L does anyone know if the DME is smart enough to disable variocam actuation on both banks if it sees a cam activation issue.. to support my theory above ?
BACK into the engine again after I source some more PARTS. Yay.
08-25-2011, 06:29 PM
#39
how much are new actuators? I'd replace both and put that headache behind you....You'd change them out and wouldn't have to worry/think about the actuators at all.
my car is back...and is going back to them this Sat :| He thought he fixed the issue by replacing two fuel injectors, but when I got in the car...the issue was still there.
my car is back...and is going back to them this Sat :| He thought he fixed the issue by replacing two fuel injectors, but when I got in the car...the issue was still there.
03-29-2012, 07:47 AM
#41
2nd Gear
Hey thanks for he pictorial write up. I have a 98 Carrera 2 that looks like its got a cracked head and this will certainly help me.
I noticed on your album that you had your engine on a pallet all shrink wrapped as of 20 Mar 2012? How come its out and wrapped?
Thanks
Steve
I noticed on your album that you had your engine on a pallet all shrink wrapped as of 20 Mar 2012? How come its out and wrapped?
Thanks
Steve
03-29-2012, 11:56 AM
#42
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Hah, old thread from long long ago.
Have you seen this thread?
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-part-2-a.html
Or this one?
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...he-finale.html
Anyways, that's actually not my engine, I am helping out a friend with his car, I've actually taken those pics offline for the time being.
My car is in my garage being driven daily.
Have you seen this thread?
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-part-2-a.html
Or this one?
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...he-finale.html
Anyways, that's actually not my engine, I am helping out a friend with his car, I've actually taken those pics offline for the time being.
My car is in my garage being driven daily.
10-05-2012, 06:24 PM
#44
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
LOL... been lurking here and there but haven't had much time for the forums at all... sorry.
Anyways, did you see the post I made above yours? ????
Also: not sure if F6I is still selling pulley's separately but here's a link for you:
http://www.flat6innovations.com/shop...cat=309&page=1
BTW: rebuilt engine has about 5,000 miles on it (and 5 autocross events), and it is still performing awesome, I swear it has more power and is running better than when I had it dynoed... this winter if I can raise some money for tires and dyno time I might get it on the rack again. Cheers...
Anyways, did you see the post I made above yours? ????
Also: not sure if F6I is still selling pulley's separately but here's a link for you:
http://www.flat6innovations.com/shop...cat=309&page=1
BTW: rebuilt engine has about 5,000 miles on it (and 5 autocross events), and it is still performing awesome, I swear it has more power and is running better than when I had it dynoed... this winter if I can raise some money for tires and dyno time I might get it on the rack again. Cheers...
10-05-2012, 09:44 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
LOL... been lurking here and there but haven't had much time for the forums at all... sorry.
Anyways, did you see the post I made above yours? ????
Also: not sure if F6I is still selling pulley's separately but here's a link for you:
http://www.flat6innovations.com/shop...cat=309&page=1
BTW: rebuilt engine has about 5,000 miles on it (and 5 autocross events), and it is still performing awesome, I swear it has more power and is running better than when I had it dynoed... this winter if I can raise some money for tires and dyno time I might get it on the rack again. Cheers...
Anyways, did you see the post I made above yours? ????
Also: not sure if F6I is still selling pulley's separately but here's a link for you:
http://www.flat6innovations.com/shop...cat=309&page=1
BTW: rebuilt engine has about 5,000 miles on it (and 5 autocross events), and it is still performing awesome, I swear it has more power and is running better than when I had it dynoed... this winter if I can raise some money for tires and dyno time I might get it on the rack again. Cheers...
Lurker as well. Been wondering if everything was good with you. I learned so much from following your rebuild posts. Still would never even think about trying it myself but very happy to hear yours is running well!
