nittanyguy1

I realize this issue has been beaten to death. If you are merely going to complain about it being brought up again, please move on to a different thread.

I just finished reading through Streather's 996 Essential companion. On page 182 of the August 2010 printing, he says (to summarize): "Lack of engine oil is the most likely cause of the IMS bearing collapsing. Low engine oil levels......cannot be blamed on anyone but the driver." He goes on to say: "Had a defective batch of bearings been discovered, PAG would have been forced to initiate a campaign action or technical service bulletin to recall these bearings and have them replaced."

Now, I have begun research into buying a 1999 996 (I could probably afford a later model year, but 1999 has some significance for me). I have basically become obsessed with reading every bit of info I can find on these cars. I see the IMS bearing thing come up again and again (yes, I believe I have read every thread concerning the issue on every english language message board on the internet). I was all set to put aside money in my budget to do an immediate bearing and RMS replacement. After reading Streather and looking behind his reasoning, I am not so sure. He basically calls the IMS claims bogus, and the dude seems to do his research.

So, is Streather full of it? Are the countless message board threads just useless flame wars? We know how things can get repeated and blown out of proportion on the internet until something not entirely based in fact becomes something generally believed as fact. As I have reread through these threads of personal stories of IMS failure, I cannot find one that mentions the oil level immediately before or immediately after the failure. Also, when reading posts of people who have prophylactically replaced their bearing, the overwhelming majority say their original bearing looks perfectly fine. This, of course, brings out the inevitable- "well it gives me piece of mind" comment. (I would probably say:" So I just wasted $2000 that I could have used on a new clutch or a kick *** big screen tv".)

Basically, where is the proof? I have a manufacturer of a replacement bearing all over the boards saying to replace the bearing, because in their expert opinion, it is factory defective. But, the great majority of these pulled original bearings seem to be fine. It almost seems like it getting heart surgery done as a preventative. The cardiac stent manufacturer says "hey, get your vessel catheterized and one of our stents put in to keep it open and prevent a future heart attack!! Here are some pictures of vessels of people who didn't get it done and they had a serious heart attack" (while failing the mention the person weighed 400 lbs and mainlined bacon grease on a daily basis). The majority of people are walking around with vessels that are not in need of a stent, and surgery would just be a wasted expense and somewhat dangerous.

I have seen people slam porsche for not releasing any numbers relative to IMS bearing failures being the cause of catastrophic engine failures. But, on the other hand, I have not seen any well-documented information from the retrofit manufacturers about how many of these original porsche bearings were actually failing or perfectly fine. (I have read that they ask these bearings be sent to them to validate a warranty, so they should have the information.) I see references to a supposed study by a "retired Timkin engineer" that referenced a 10% failure rate. But, where is the actual study? How many cars were involved? Do they have serial numbers of the engines the IMS bearings were removed from so they could cross reference them with production dates and give us an idea of the magnitude of the problem? Was an ACTUAL study done, with ACTUAL documentation and ACTUAL well established and controlled parameters in a sample size large enough to be significant??

In other words, I am highly skeptical of this IMS bearing brouhaha. All I have seen is hearsay and references to mythical "studies"- none of them independent or documented. I just think if people are going to slam a company with a normally stellar track record of reliability, some proof to back it up would be great.

And lastly, I am not a shill for any company, nor do I have an axe to grind. Yes I am a new member and have a relatively low post count. But, a high post count does not necessarily mean someone actually has substance to offer, just that they have no problem pressing "reply" and typing. I am merely neck deep in researching this car and am looking for some answers. (And no, I really don't expect to find them on an anonymous message board, but it is worth a try.) I also don't want this post to come out unnecessarily harsh, as that is not my intention. I'm just looking for some fact-supported commentary instead of the usual fear-fest that occurs when this topic is brought up. If I get some actual documented proof that I should be separated from my $2000 for a new IMS bearing, I will do it because it makes financial sense. Thanks in advance.

LVDell

Not only has it been beaten to death, your very point has been raised (Adrain Streather in his book, Bruce Anderson in Excellence, etc, etc, etc). Please do a search and you will see just as the IMS sticky has spelled out.

With that said, I agree with you that the IMS hysteria machine is built on the back on the internet. It's very easy to create fear in a forum like this and very easy for guys to be driven to insanity that their car is a ticking time bomb as Raby has said.

But......Guys like Raby have developed a great UPGRADED bearing. Under no circumstance should anybody think otherwise that it is preventative maintenance. If you find yourself with the motor and/or tranny dropped and want to drop $500-$1000 on an upgraded bearing then that is a good product.

ps. these boards don't have to be anonymous. Use your real name and fill in your location like most of us do. You'll gain much more respect and credibility when people actually know who you are.

nittanyguy1

Dell, I have done a very thorough search on this subject,as I pointed out above. I have yet to see any EVIDENCE for this replacement, or any to point out that the bearing is actually an UPGRADE over the original. How many times have the new bearings failed? If you could point me to a post where the facts and figures relating to the original IMS versus the new bearings where this has been spelled out conclusively (with actual proof instead of hearsay), that would be fantastic.

As for my anonymity, I have seen that the majority of posters on this forum do not use their name. I belong to other forums dedicated to my profession and most posters use their name. On here, I have discovered the exact opposite, so I did not include mine in the original post, as that seemed to be status quo, and I didn't want to violate an unwritten forum rule of which I was unaware. Ethan

LVDell

Ethan, welcome aboard

As far as the evidence, you will find zero. The only evidence would be to understand that upgrade means better that what is already present. However, better than "what" is the underlying problem with this debate. The stock unit is not defective and performs properly. So, upgrading to a bearing that is better than stock is (pardon the loose analogy) like upgrading your stock cast wheels to forged wheels. Sure, the forged wheels are stronger (i.e., better) but are the cast wheels not performing as designed? In the case of the bearing you would be asked to believe so.

And the anonymous stuff pisses me off. In my mind I envision a forum where you are REQUIRED to post your real name and location. I have a feeling a lot of the bull**** that flies around here would be reduced if people couldn't be anonymous.

ivangene

look its simple, buy the best 996 you can find, and replace that damn bearing as part of the purchase

they fail... not all of them, but some of them and if anyone on the planet "knows why" they are full of ****

IMO driving it more spiritedly is a great way to enjoy the car and might help offset the issue, letting them sit or lugging around at low rpm would be my highest suspect reasons for failure...just change it

LVDell

bingo!

nittanyguy1

Listen, after hearing the horror stories, I am all for replacing the bearing. The only problem is, are they just stories? Is the replacement bearing actually better than the real bearing? We've all heard stories about aftermarket parts voiding engine warranties because a lot of aftermarket parts are under-engineered and over-promised. (I realize a 99 will no longer have an engine warranty). Is the new bearing prone to less failure than the original? Has anyone offered proof that it is?

Now I'm not saying this to be cheap. I am asking this more out of self-preservation. If I am to buy another "toy" car, my 6th in 5 years, then justify spending another $2,000 parts and labor on a prophylactic bearing and it blows up, I doubt my beautiful wife will be keen on me purchasing anymore "toy" cars until my kids' college is paid for, and my retirement has been fully funded.

Has anyone had any problems with the new bearing? Ethan

PS- Dell, thanks for the welcome. I apologize for stirring a hornets nest.

LVDell

Too new to know. Sorry, but I won't be a clinical trial guinea pig.

Very welcome. Enjoy your time here. It truly is a great community. Just make sure to have a thick skin

Don't worry about the hornets. We don't like boring here!

Shark Attack

yeah... sigh.... please just search.... please.... all your questions have been answered.. Im tired of retyping the same thing.

if you skeptical.. go buy a car and forget about it... Simple.. you have done your research. we all have our own opinions

Shark Attack

I AM NOT.. I think my idea of why is very good and plausable

Flat6 Innovations

Call me Monday morning and I'll get you in touch with eight owners of Porsches that have their vehicles at my shop now, or just received them back after being positively identified as having IMS bearing failures. These were photo documented.

Yes, I have engine serial numbers and VIN from EVERY vehicle that we have retrofitted since day #1. I have a cross reference log that has this information as well as the FSI serial number of the bearing that was applied to that engine and that serial number crosses with the door jamb decal for 100% identification in the future. Here is Ed's decal, we just finished his work two weeks ago, he shipped his car 2500 miles for our procedure because he believed the issue existed.


I also have a log of the engines that we have seen fail from the IMSBF. All of this has been gathered and logged for a very specific reason and it takes a lot of effort to keep the logs up to date. I will state that I only have this data for the bearings that we have retrofitted here on site and have supplied to others through our store.

Nittanyguy, I appreciate your skepticism. There has to be a "devil's advocate" in every situation for it to be reality. I can tell you that one week spent in my upstairs admin area where the phone calls come in would prove to you that there is an issue and though it might not happen to every car on the road, it certainly happens to enough to warrant action.

At the present we have more cars at our facility that have come there broken on a trailer than have come there for elective procedures and thats always the case. I have eleven broken cars from 10 different states (as far away as Oregon and Cali) and only two preventive upgrade cases awaiting the service to electively replace the bearing.

While it may seem that many bearings are removed in fine co ndition, many people do not know a bad bearing when they feel one. Disection of the bearing tells the real tale about it's state of wear. It is also possible for a good bearing to become a bad bearing in just a couple thousand miles if it has progressed through the wear stages fast enough.

All of this is about to become a lot better for the guys that don't wish to electively apply an IMSR to their Porsche. I have devised a method to predict IMS bearing failures in the car with advanced notice. This allows the driver to look into the engine closer at the local INDY shop, apply an IMSR and save the engine or they have other options as to what can be done to/ with the car before the engine breaks.

Much like Cancer, the key to avoiding death from the IMSBF is awareness and early detection.

There will always be skeptics. Last year one of the skeptics experienced his own IMSBF and at that point he dropped off the boards and sold his car. I verified what occurred through his local mechanic who called to tell us who he was and what happened.

Remember: Before you start busting on the guys who developed this retrofit you should remember that for the first 10 years of the M96 engine a bearing retrofit was not possible. During those periods if a bearing even started to fail the ENGINE WAS DEEMED PURE JUNK!! You had NO CHOICE but to buy a new engine. I'll take all the skepticism in the world, because no one can take away the sense of pride that all involved have from creating the retrofit bearing and procedure that can and does save these engines on a routine basis when caught in time.

At the present time the IMSR technology, procedures and bearings have a 100% rate for effectiveness, not a single unit has failed in any engine.

Here is another tad bit of information before anyone thinks that we are getting rich from IMSR procedures. We make MORE if your engine fails and it needs replacement than we do if you retrofit a bearing! For many years I had the only M96 engine program in this country and the failures taught us what we know about engines and paid for all the other development. I stand to "gain" a lot more if your engine explodes than I do if you retrofit it electively. That doesn't stop us from retroffitting every car that comes into our facility.

The early detection system will help those with cars that have diminishing values and don't wish to spend 3K on a retrofit for a car that isn't broken yet or starting to break. The unit is in final testing now and the only thing holding us up is the patent work and trademarking.

Yet again, skeptics are abundant and some people are simply "vendor haters" in this world. We have grown to appreciate what these people bring to the table through their skepticism and NOTHING else on the planet drives us harder than these people, their comments and their disbelief in what we do.

The funny part is the fact that some skeptics remain skeptical even after they have an IMSR performed on their own car. They think that we don't know who they are, but we do and I laugh my *** off every time they post saying the problem doesn't exist, even though they have an IMSR in their car but never applied the door decal to prove it!

nittanyguy1

I love it. Exactly the post I expected. "Please search"... I give the new guy no credence as to his intelligence or persistence. I searched and I did not find my specific answer. I have come to the conclusion, as Dell has pointed out above, that there is no proof.

I also think this thread should die a quick and merciful death. I'm not going to get the answer I'm looking for, and its insinuated I'm somehow an idiot for bringing it up. Happens in every message forum on every common topic. You will find it in almost every thread on IMS. Someone says to do a search and leave it alone. (But than invariably, someone else decides to try and answer the original question and some unique information does come out in the posts that follow.)Its like going to an oncology conference and hearing someone say "Cancer, again. Why does someone always bring up cancer at these things?! That horse has been flogged enough."

I do sincerely hope everyone has a decent Easter, Passover, weekend, etc. Ethan

ivangene

I have heard of at least one failure with a replacement bearing.... but it was NOT the LNE bearing. LNE's have a perfect track record at this point in time.

as for $ / toy / beautiful wife equation..... dont go into this thinking it will be cheap, even a well sorted car has stuff it needs...and there aint nothin cheap about a Porsche when it comes to getting things done. Last week I got new tires and someone asked how long the old ones lasted... I said 1 year / 9k miles.... he said holy crap, my last set I got 40k miles out of.... I looked him straight in the face and said, those must have been the worst tires on the planet, why did you wait so long to get rid of them....

doing an oil change myself (with good oil) is over $100

just changed shocks.... $150 each, really? yea really - not to frighten you but its just costs money. Learn to do some of your own work and you will save $2k in no time, just take it to the shop for stuff that is too big to tackle by yourself (although many have done this at home too)

welcome to the board, after the fear wears off the smile is still stuck

ivangene

nice post Jake

nittanyguy1

Jake, Can you release the statistics you have compiled? I am not a "vendor hater", only someone who likes a bit of information to make informed decisions. I think releasing your findings would be extremely beneficial to every porsche owner and your business. There would be an actual case for getting these bearings replaced proactively, and it seems like you are the only game in town. Out of proactively replaced bearings in 1999, how many were actually going bad, and how many were normal? I have heard 10% bandied about, but have not seen any actual statistics. If I own a car that has a 10% chance of needing a new engine at $16,000, I get the new bearing at $2-3,000 instead. I think that is a no brainer. If you found that only 2-3% of these bearing were bad, I may not elect to get the bearing done. What have you found? Or, to be more specific, out of the original 1999 bearings you have received, what percentage were actually bad?
And thank you for posting on this. I have seen you post on other threads, but have yet to see any concrete statistics. (The thread usually blows up in accusations, etc. before that point) Concrete statistics turn people from skeptics into believers. And secondly, A 0% failure rating on the new bearing is absolutely fantastic and has probably swayed me into purchasing an upgrade when I purchase the car. Still, I am VERY interested to see the stats from the pulled bearings. Thanks, Ethan