EBS Racing - rebuilds M96 engines for $9K
12-01-2010, 01:29 AM
#16
Nordschleife Master
I like you too. Could you tell me what's so special about sleeving an M96 motor, I'm happy to learn something new here. Hartech will do a single cylinder repair/sleeving w/out a problem...
My point here is that IMO there's a lot of fear mongering here. I've rebuilt many engines, and to me the M96 isn't that special. Get me a free block w/a cracked cylinder (or several of them if you can), I will weld the crack, put a sleeve in it, and split the profit with you. I don't go into this type of repair often (because as I said, when you can get a whole engine for $2-3k, what's the point), but if you really think there's an abundance of these blocks, it would be worth my time. I imagine there is not.
RE: Air oil separator, it's an easier job on the MKII than the MKI, I think it took just under 40 minutes, from underneath. I've made a post about it before, I wouldn't recommend doing this w/out a lift, or for the "home mechanic".
My point here is that IMO there's a lot of fear mongering here. I've rebuilt many engines, and to me the M96 isn't that special. Get me a free block w/a cracked cylinder (or several of them if you can), I will weld the crack, put a sleeve in it, and split the profit with you. I don't go into this type of repair often (because as I said, when you can get a whole engine for $2-3k, what's the point), but if you really think there's an abundance of these blocks, it would be worth my time. I imagine there is not.
RE: Air oil separator, it's an easier job on the MKII than the MKI, I think it took just under 40 minutes, from underneath. I've made a post about it before, I wouldn't recommend doing this w/out a lift, or for the "home mechanic".
12-01-2010, 01:56 AM
#17
Parts Specialist
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on an M96? Must be one talentaed fella, I am not metalergist but the materials used from the factory are not that great and most shops that I have heard of dont replace with the material so you end up with one replaced with a differant material? that doesnt sound like a good way to start - than the shape is quite unique and the way it is ut into the base materal with cutouts and holes for installing the wrist pins... simple? OK
I thought the same thing till I was in there and saw how easy the wrist pins go in, the craddle build and chains, again, not rocket science but without special tools and instructions that dont exsist and torques - sequences not found by any means other than discovery... good luck
there is somewhere...Porsche has knowledge of where/how many unless they are just welding them up and turning them back out to be installed in the next unsuspecting customers car
Look I am no expert but in 3 years of spending more time at the shop than I care to admit I have learned a few things. These motors can be fixed, parts are expensive, labor aint cheap, knowledge is king and a **** poor repair will bite you in the a$$
No going to discuss the ins and outs of why a shop might charge $2k for a clutch but there are reasons for things, if it was easy and money to be made in bucket loads there would be 40 Porsche repair shops in Seattle - and there isnt - plus there is only one shop that I know of rebuilding M96's - I think there must be a reason, could be risk management or lack of understanding... I am guessing a little of each.
I dont buy the weld it up and off to the races approach though. We see race engines and street cars, if things are not right they fail - end of story
Look I am no expert but in 3 years of spending more time at the shop than I care to admit I have learned a few things. These motors can be fixed, parts are expensive, labor aint cheap, knowledge is king and a **** poor repair will bite you in the a$$
No going to discuss the ins and outs of why a shop might charge $2k for a clutch but there are reasons for things, if it was easy and money to be made in bucket loads there would be 40 Porsche repair shops in Seattle - and there isnt - plus there is only one shop that I know of rebuilding M96's - I think there must be a reason, could be risk management or lack of understanding... I am guessing a little of each.
I dont buy the weld it up and off to the races approach though. We see race engines and street cars, if things are not right they fail - end of story
12-01-2010, 03:06 AM
#18
Three Wheelin'
Take a look at the Hartech website (UK) and you will see that he is. He has documented a lot of his findings with respect to M96 issues and cylinder ovality in the pdf files which can be downloaded from his website.
Here is one of his guides (there are others on his web) http://www.hartech.org/docs/buyers%2...20part%204.pdf
Here is one of his guides (there are others on his web) http://www.hartech.org/docs/buyers%2...20part%204.pdf
Last edited by OZ951; 12-01-2010 at 03:14 AM. Reason: inserted link
12-01-2010, 03:31 AM
#19
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ivangene, the lokasil material/treatment is not unique to Porsche. I've rebuilt my first liner-less aluminum block when I was a teenager, and put 60k miles on it. Alusil is in wide use (VW/Audis, BMWs, Mercedes', and of course Porsches). Sleeving an aluminum block is certainly not rare, GM sleeves aluminum blocks by the millions. Shops around the world do, since practically all lokasil (and the vast majority of alusil) cylinder bore increases will be accompanied by liners. Hartech does it on M96s, even on an individual cylinder basis, w/a warranty and they're not the only ones.
12-01-2010, 09:56 AM
#20
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Well this is good to hear that after 12 years some shops have ways of fixing these. I will pass along the info and have some round table (aka across the top of a garbage can) discussions.
The thing I am interested in is heling keep cars running and avoiding those $20k repair bills. So far the options have been limited and it is enevidable that in time (as more people begin to repair these motors as opposed to replace) the repairs will become more widespread. Still in this day in age $9k seems like one BIG step down in price which leads me to think some steps in the "rebuild" may not be as thourough as they could be. - I suppose it all depends on what was wrong with the donor motor
I am all ears and will be discussing these thoughts with others, thanks for the links
The thing I am interested in is heling keep cars running and avoiding those $20k repair bills. So far the options have been limited and it is enevidable that in time (as more people begin to repair these motors as opposed to replace) the repairs will become more widespread. Still in this day in age $9k seems like one BIG step down in price which leads me to think some steps in the "rebuild" may not be as thourough as they could be. - I suppose it all depends on what was wrong with the donor motor
I am all ears and will be discussing these thoughts with others, thanks for the links
12-02-2010, 12:46 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
We noted 8 years ago that these engines would be repaired and thats when the development to support shops and those efforts began. More and more shops are losing work that could help keep them afloat because they are not willing to learn about the engine and diversify away from the aircooled Porsche engines that they have the most experience and confidence with.
My training classes stay filled at both an enthusiast and professional level and the Worldpac WTI program is looking into having me offer a class at the 2012 WTI Expo as well.
Shops are taking too long to open up to the fact that this engine is something they MUST learn about if they want to stay in business in the 21st Century.
My training classes stay filled at both an enthusiast and professional level and the Worldpac WTI program is looking into having me offer a class at the 2012 WTI Expo as well.
Shops are taking too long to open up to the fact that this engine is something they MUST learn about if they want to stay in business in the 21st Century.
12-02-2010, 12:50 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
I think what is the shock here from the OP... is that they can do it for 9k.
Myself, when the time comes I will be heading to your shop Jake... Go to the source when you want it right.
Myself, when the time comes I will be heading to your shop Jake... Go to the source when you want it right.
12-02-2010, 12:56 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
^ If you are looking at it this way, it probably makes more sense to sell your running engine and source a blown engine for Jake to rebuild. At least you can get $5K + for your running engine and pick up a blown core cheap.
Things are still changing. TPC racing is installing a 3.8L into a 3.6 L 996 because a 3.8 L costs $13K vs $17K for a 3.6 replacement. You still pay around $17K the time TPC adjusts the ECU and other parts in the way of a 3.8 but you get a 3.8L and save part of the install cost.
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...w-3-6-17k.html
There are so many different options now
Things are still changing. TPC racing is installing a 3.8L into a 3.6 L 996 because a 3.8 L costs $13K vs $17K for a 3.6 replacement. You still pay around $17K the time TPC adjusts the ECU and other parts in the way of a 3.8 but you get a 3.8L and save part of the install cost.
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...w-3-6-17k.html
There are so many different options now
12-02-2010, 01:05 PM
#24
Three Wheelin'
That makes absolutely no sense what so ever... Why would I sell my motor too rebuild a blown motor... Use what I have until it goes then have Jake build me a Great Stock Class race motor... You go ahead an place a 3.8 in your car... I will just buy another car with a 3.8 aready in it!
12-02-2010, 01:23 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Actually you would probably be better off rebuilding yours BEFORE it blew. You could do oil samples and cut open oil filters regularly to come closer in determining when it may be close to blowing and then catch it if you really wanted to get all the miles out of what you have.
So whats a 3.6 cost to rebuild these days Jake ? I had a customer that had priced one out with you and said it was substantially more cost to rebuild with you than the cost of just buying one directly from Porsche.
On the 3.8 conversions, some people like the 3.8, some the X51, no real right or wrong, just what works best for your situation and preference. TPC isn't the only one doing those conversions, many are. On the cheaper price, Porsche from time to time offers specials on some engines, I am guessing to clean out old or what they consider excess inventory, some dealers will pass some of that savings on to move some merchandise.
So whats a 3.6 cost to rebuild these days Jake ? I had a customer that had priced one out with you and said it was substantially more cost to rebuild with you than the cost of just buying one directly from Porsche.
On the 3.8 conversions, some people like the 3.8, some the X51, no real right or wrong, just what works best for your situation and preference. TPC isn't the only one doing those conversions, many are. On the cheaper price, Porsche from time to time offers specials on some engines, I am guessing to clean out old or what they consider excess inventory, some dealers will pass some of that savings on to move some merchandise.
That makes absolutely no sense what so ever... Why would I sell my motor too rebuild a blown motor... Use what I have until it goes then have Jake build me a Great Stock Class race motor... You go ahead an place a 3.8 in your car... I will just buy another car with a 3.8 aready in it!
12-02-2010, 01:30 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
That makes absolutely no sense what so ever... Why would I sell my motor too rebuild a blown motor... Use what I have until it goes then have Jake build me a Great Stock Class race motor... You go ahead an place a 3.8 in your car... I will just buy another car with a 3.8 aready in it!
Actually you would probably be better off rebuilding yours BEFORE it blew. You could do oil samples and cut open oil filters regularly to come closer in determining when it may be close to blowing and then catch it if you really wanted to get all the miles out of what you have.
So whats a 3.6 cost to rebuild these days Jake ? I had a customer that had priced one out with you and said it was substantially more cost to rebuild with you than the cost of just buying one directly from Porsche.
On the 3.8 conversions, some people like the 3.8, some the X51, no real right or wrong, just what works best for your situation and preference. TPC isn't the only one doing those conversions, many are. On the cheaper price, Porsche from time to time offers specials on some engines, I am guessing to clean out old or what they consider excess inventory, some dealers will pass some of that savings on to move some merchandise.
So whats a 3.6 cost to rebuild these days Jake ? I had a customer that had priced one out with you and said it was substantially more cost to rebuild with you than the cost of just buying one directly from Porsche.
On the 3.8 conversions, some people like the 3.8, some the X51, no real right or wrong, just what works best for your situation and preference. TPC isn't the only one doing those conversions, many are. On the cheaper price, Porsche from time to time offers specials on some engines, I am guessing to clean out old or what they consider excess inventory, some dealers will pass some of that savings on to move some merchandise.
12-02-2010, 02:12 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
You have a point in staying within your racing stock class regulations. No one ever said porsche racing was going to be cheap.
I am throwing this out here because some people are emotionally attached to their current car. A 3.8L upgrade will probably keep up with the 6GT3 and it is cheaper than selling your existing car and buying a 6GT3. No one knows if the balance of the car will be affected though and you will take a beating in terms of resale on your 3.8 L upgrade.
I am throwing this out here because some people are emotionally attached to their current car. A 3.8L upgrade will probably keep up with the 6GT3 and it is cheaper than selling your existing car and buying a 6GT3. No one knows if the balance of the car will be affected though and you will take a beating in terms of resale on your 3.8 L upgrade.
I like the 3.8 and X51 upgrades, more power is a good thing ! ECU's are easy to reflash to adjust for the increases as well and conversions when picked properly are easy to do.
As for rebuilding the "stock" class racer, check the rules carefully, some rebuild techniques may not be allowed or in the spirit of the rules. Not that in PCA you'd ever get torn down that far..... but I just like to be fair.
12-02-2010, 02:35 PM
#28
Drifting
The 3.8 upgrade to a 3.6 car is interesting and doable. They both have the 7.8 DME that controls the VarioCamPlus functions. However for all the 3.4 VarioCam engines/cars this is not really a viable option. The 7.2 DME is quite different from the 7.8, fuel systems are different, Canbus, etc. etc. etc.
As for the cost of the Porsche reman and Jake's engines, the Porsche engine is still basically a stock engine while the list of upgrades and fixes that Jake has made to the engines he builds go on and on. You are really comparing apples to oranges here.
As for the cost of the Porsche reman and Jake's engines, the Porsche engine is still basically a stock engine while the list of upgrades and fixes that Jake has made to the engines he builds go on and on. You are really comparing apples to oranges here.
12-02-2010, 02:43 PM
#29
Parts Specialist
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Doug... Jake is working a way to run a variocam Plus motor in an early (non plus) car.
from the things I have heard its not overly expensive with off the shelf items but still in the development phase...I dont know if he is doing it for fun or plans to make it available to the public.
from the things I have heard its not overly expensive with off the shelf items but still in the development phase...I dont know if he is doing it for fun or plans to make it available to the public.
12-02-2010, 02:45 PM
#30
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Doug... Jake is working a way to run a variocam Plus motor in an early (non plus) car.
from the things I have heard its not overly expensive with off the shelf items but still in the development phase...I dont know if he is doing it for fun or plans to make it available to the public.
from the things I have heard its not overly expensive with off the shelf items but still in the development phase...I dont know if he is doing it for fun or plans to make it available to the public.
