Bang for buck track mods?
#1
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Well, Ive tracked my 4S 5 times in the last 10 months and I have been contemplating some modifications to stabilize the car during these spirited drives. So far, Ive noticed a lot of dive while braking, a bit too much body roll during hard cornering, moderate understeer when accelerating out of slower turns and a lack of traction typically in hairpins style turns. My car is bone stock. I only lower my tire pressure only while on track. (street tires)
I have a good idea of which mods will improve these issues however coilover suspension, lightwheels and race tires, drop links sways etc etc can get a bit pricey if purchased all at once. I know a lot of you guys have been tracking your cars for years and have experience with mods that find a nice balance between a daily driver and track weapon...
What mods should I start with to be more effective on the track? PSS10s or drop links, adjustable control arms and sway bars? Do I need to add all of these to feel a noticeable difference? Should I add them one by one to gradually sharpen the handling?
And yes, Im aware most drivers prefer to do safety mods before any performance/handling modification. Ive already taken some precaution to keep this addiction safe. Helmet, harness, half cage, fire extinguisher are first on my list. So far Ive only driven with instructors and have found thier guidance extremely valuable.
So? If you have read this far I thank you. If you could list some bang for buck handling/performance mods Id be gratefull.... Im not too concerned with increasing power at the moment only road handling for now....
I have a good idea of which mods will improve these issues however coilover suspension, lightwheels and race tires, drop links sways etc etc can get a bit pricey if purchased all at once. I know a lot of you guys have been tracking your cars for years and have experience with mods that find a nice balance between a daily driver and track weapon...
What mods should I start with to be more effective on the track? PSS10s or drop links, adjustable control arms and sway bars? Do I need to add all of these to feel a noticeable difference? Should I add them one by one to gradually sharpen the handling?
And yes, Im aware most drivers prefer to do safety mods before any performance/handling modification. Ive already taken some precaution to keep this addiction safe. Helmet, harness, half cage, fire extinguisher are first on my list. So far Ive only driven with instructors and have found thier guidance extremely valuable.
So? If you have read this far I thank you. If you could list some bang for buck handling/performance mods Id be gratefull.... Im not too concerned with increasing power at the moment only road handling for now....
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#2
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How's your alignment? Are you running street tires or "R" comps?
The big issue on 996's is you typically can't get enough negative camber with the stock components. I would start there first.. camber and a good alignment.
I'd also ask, how long do you plan to track this particular car? Sometimes, once people have truly slid down the slippery slope, it becomes apparent the desire for 1) a dedicated track and 2) a civil street car.
Many years ago I instructed in a 996TT with the X74 (?) factory sport suspension package and was quite impressed. If it works for the Turbo, maybe it also works on the 4S. One nice thing about factory stuff it that it does work well, the compromise between "street" and "track".
The big issue on 996's is you typically can't get enough negative camber with the stock components. I would start there first.. camber and a good alignment.
I'd also ask, how long do you plan to track this particular car? Sometimes, once people have truly slid down the slippery slope, it becomes apparent the desire for 1) a dedicated track and 2) a civil street car.
Many years ago I instructed in a 996TT with the X74 (?) factory sport suspension package and was quite impressed. If it works for the Turbo, maybe it also works on the 4S. One nice thing about factory stuff it that it does work well, the compromise between "street" and "track".
#3
Instructor
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I just posted a thread on how to deal with understeer in the rain, and a couple people suggested changing my driving style. So I've been practicing on the street 12am on ramps mostly. Brake later/trailbrake to deal with understeer.
I'm not upgrading until I'm at the limit of the car, and driving it 10/10. I think I've got a lot more track days/years left to master driving a stock 911.
I'm not upgrading until I'm at the limit of the car, and driving it 10/10. I think I've got a lot more track days/years left to master driving a stock 911.
#5
The Penguin King
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Well, safety and instruction first, but you've stated you already know that. However, I'll add that if you're going to do harnesses, you can't do it without seats fixed back seats designed for harnesses. And DO NOT go with harnesses without a HANS.
Your car is a 4S, so it will probably eventually present limitations on the track that are just unavoidable. Getting rid of understeer is going to be difficult. Depending upon how far you take things, eventually you may prefer a 2wd car. That said, if you are going to do the suspension, do it all at once. I'd do the PSS9's, GT3 control arms, rear toe links, adjustable sways, and drop links. It will take the control arms, to able to get rid of most of the push you are experiencing. Trying to get rid of the push without the control arms will just leave you chewing up the outside edges of your front tires. Just be aware that putting in sufficient negative camber will cause you to wear the inside edges of your tires on the street. Suspension is where I'd start for performance upgrades.
Brakes: SS brake lines are a very good idea. Along with that, all you really should put in some SRF of Motul for fluid. You should consider this much of the brake mods as a safety issue and probably do it sooner than later. Later you will want to go to track pads. Once you put in the track pads, you will start to overpower your tires on braking, which leads you to...
Tires: I would not go to r-comp tires until you have more experience. They don't communicate loss of grip as well as street tires, and when they lose grip, you will be going much faster than you would be on street tires. Hold off for a while on that.
These comments are all aimed towards someone who wants to upgrade a car that will be primarily street, but wants a car that is ok on the track. If that's not what you ultimately want, just track it the way it is for a while, and then get a dedicated C2 based track car.
Be careful, this is a very slippery slope!
Your car is a 4S, so it will probably eventually present limitations on the track that are just unavoidable. Getting rid of understeer is going to be difficult. Depending upon how far you take things, eventually you may prefer a 2wd car. That said, if you are going to do the suspension, do it all at once. I'd do the PSS9's, GT3 control arms, rear toe links, adjustable sways, and drop links. It will take the control arms, to able to get rid of most of the push you are experiencing. Trying to get rid of the push without the control arms will just leave you chewing up the outside edges of your front tires. Just be aware that putting in sufficient negative camber will cause you to wear the inside edges of your tires on the street. Suspension is where I'd start for performance upgrades.
Brakes: SS brake lines are a very good idea. Along with that, all you really should put in some SRF of Motul for fluid. You should consider this much of the brake mods as a safety issue and probably do it sooner than later. Later you will want to go to track pads. Once you put in the track pads, you will start to overpower your tires on braking, which leads you to...
Tires: I would not go to r-comp tires until you have more experience. They don't communicate loss of grip as well as street tires, and when they lose grip, you will be going much faster than you would be on street tires. Hold off for a while on that.
These comments are all aimed towards someone who wants to upgrade a car that will be primarily street, but wants a car that is ok on the track. If that's not what you ultimately want, just track it the way it is for a while, and then get a dedicated C2 based track car.
Be careful, this is a very slippery slope!
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
#6
The Penguin King
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BTW, I agree with the seat time comments. I'm just assuming that you know that already.
#7
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Thread Starter
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How's your alignment? Are you running street tires or "R" comps?
The big issue on 996's is you typically can't get enough negative camber with the stock components. I would start there first.. camber and a good alignment.
I'd also ask, how long do you plan to track this particular car? Sometimes, once people have truly slid down the slippery slope, it becomes apparent the desire for 1) a dedicated track and 2) a civil street car.
Many years ago I instructed in a 996TT with the X74 (?) factory sport suspension package and was quite impressed. If it works for the Turbo, maybe it also works on the 4S. One nice thing about factory stuff it that it does work well, the compromise between "street" and "track".
The big issue on 996's is you typically can't get enough negative camber with the stock components. I would start there first.. camber and a good alignment.
I'd also ask, how long do you plan to track this particular car? Sometimes, once people have truly slid down the slippery slope, it becomes apparent the desire for 1) a dedicated track and 2) a civil street car.
Many years ago I instructed in a 996TT with the X74 (?) factory sport suspension package and was quite impressed. If it works for the Turbo, maybe it also works on the 4S. One nice thing about factory stuff it that it does work well, the compromise between "street" and "track".
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#8
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I just posted a thread on how to deal with understeer in the rain, and a couple people suggested changing my driving style. So I've been practicing on the street 12am on ramps mostly. Brake later/trailbrake to deal with understeer.
I'm not upgrading until I'm at the limit of the car, and driving it 10/10. I think I've got a lot more track days/years left to master driving a stock 911.
I'm not upgrading until I'm at the limit of the car, and driving it 10/10. I think I've got a lot more track days/years left to master driving a stock 911.
![thumbup](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/thumbup.gif)
#9
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http://www.skipbarber.com/driving_sc...p/default.aspx
Best performance money you can spend. And the car stays nice for daily driving.
Start with 2-Day HPD, then Advanced HPD, then 3-day Racing school. Follow with 1-day fun courses, then lapping days. Then go to the PCA DE's with confidence, skill, and faster times than the boy-racer prepped (sans professional training) cars.
Over 70 PCA DE's at 8 different tracks in 20 years, and I never owned a track tire. PCA Instructor Certification. I run in the fastest run groups, in an essentially street stock C2 coupe. I drive to and from on the same tires as on track. No hassles. Just fun. Any time, any place.
Best performance money you can spend. And the car stays nice for daily driving.
Start with 2-Day HPD, then Advanced HPD, then 3-day Racing school. Follow with 1-day fun courses, then lapping days. Then go to the PCA DE's with confidence, skill, and faster times than the boy-racer prepped (sans professional training) cars.
Over 70 PCA DE's at 8 different tracks in 20 years, and I never owned a track tire. PCA Instructor Certification. I run in the fastest run groups, in an essentially street stock C2 coupe. I drive to and from on the same tires as on track. No hassles. Just fun. Any time, any place.
#10
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Thread Starter
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Well, safety and instruction first, but you've stated you already know that. However, I'll add that if you're going to do harnesses, you can't do it without seats fixed back seats designed for harnesses. And DO NOT go with harnesses without a HANS.
Your car is a 4S, so it will probably eventually present limitations on the track that are just unavoidable. Getting rid of understeer is going to be difficult. Depending upon how far you take things, eventually you may prefer a 2wd car. That said, if you are going to do the suspension, do it all at once. I'd do the PSS9's, GT3 control arms, rear toe links, adjustable sways, and drop links. It will take the control arms, to able to get rid of most of the push you are experiencing. Trying to get rid of the push without the control arms will just leave you chewing up the outside edges of your front tires. Just be aware that putting in sufficient negative camber will cause you to wear the inside edges of your tires on the street. Suspension is where I'd start for performance upgrades.
Brakes: SS brake lines are a very good idea. Along with that, all you really should put in some SRF of Motul for fluid. You should consider this much of the brake mods as a safety issue and probably do it sooner than later. Later you will want to go to track pads. Once you put in the track pads, you will start to overpower your tires on braking, which leads you to...
Tires: I would not go to r-comp tires until you have more experience. They don't communicate loss of grip as well as street tires, and when they lose grip, you will be going much faster than you would be on street tires. Hold off for a while on that.
These comments are all aimed towards someone who wants to upgrade a car that will be primarily street, but wants a car that is ok on the track. If that's not what you ultimately want, just track it the way it is for a while, and then get a dedicated C2 based track car.
Be careful, this is a very slippery slope!![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Your car is a 4S, so it will probably eventually present limitations on the track that are just unavoidable. Getting rid of understeer is going to be difficult. Depending upon how far you take things, eventually you may prefer a 2wd car. That said, if you are going to do the suspension, do it all at once. I'd do the PSS9's, GT3 control arms, rear toe links, adjustable sways, and drop links. It will take the control arms, to able to get rid of most of the push you are experiencing. Trying to get rid of the push without the control arms will just leave you chewing up the outside edges of your front tires. Just be aware that putting in sufficient negative camber will cause you to wear the inside edges of your tires on the street. Suspension is where I'd start for performance upgrades.
Brakes: SS brake lines are a very good idea. Along with that, all you really should put in some SRF of Motul for fluid. You should consider this much of the brake mods as a safety issue and probably do it sooner than later. Later you will want to go to track pads. Once you put in the track pads, you will start to overpower your tires on braking, which leads you to...
Tires: I would not go to r-comp tires until you have more experience. They don't communicate loss of grip as well as street tires, and when they lose grip, you will be going much faster than you would be on street tires. Hold off for a while on that.
These comments are all aimed towards someone who wants to upgrade a car that will be primarily street, but wants a car that is ok on the track. If that's not what you ultimately want, just track it the way it is for a while, and then get a dedicated C2 based track car.
Be careful, this is a very slippery slope!
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Yes, I daily drive the car and the roads in my city arent the best but ill still sacrifice comfort for handling on track days. When I was shopping for the
Porsche i only wanted a rear wheel drive car but love the widebody look. Do you know anyone that converted a 996 4S to 2 wheel drive? how complicated is it?
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
#11
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Thread Starter
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http://www.skipbarber.com/driving_sc...p/default.aspx
Best performance money you can spend. And the car stays nice for daily driving.
Start with 2-Day HPD, then Advanced HPD, then 3-day Racing school. Follow with 1-day fun courses, then lapping days. Then go to the PCA DE's with confidence, skill, and faster times than the boy-racer prepped (sans professional training) cars.
Over 70 PCA DE's at 8 different tracks in 20 years, and I never owned a track tire. PCA Instructor Certification. I run in the fastest run groups, in an essentially street stock C2 coupe. I drive to and from on the same tires as on track. No hassles. Just fun. Any time, any place.
Best performance money you can spend. And the car stays nice for daily driving.
Start with 2-Day HPD, then Advanced HPD, then 3-day Racing school. Follow with 1-day fun courses, then lapping days. Then go to the PCA DE's with confidence, skill, and faster times than the boy-racer prepped (sans professional training) cars.
Over 70 PCA DE's at 8 different tracks in 20 years, and I never owned a track tire. PCA Instructor Certification. I run in the fastest run groups, in an essentially street stock C2 coupe. I drive to and from on the same tires as on track. No hassles. Just fun. Any time, any place.
![thumbup](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/thumbup.gif)
#12
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Im in a very similar situation. Torn between adapting the 4S for track (DE) use, and just sucking it up and getting a much more radical track car.
There are guys on here that know much more about the suspension mods so I have nothing valuable to add there - but I've spent some time researching the conversion of our car to 2WD... Since our 4S's are based on the Turbo chassis, check out Tom Kerr's posts in the 996 Turbo section (also on 6Speedonline)... he did an amazing conversion to a full race care. great work.
In short you have to disconnect the front drive shaft - then start dismantling the front diff in order to get the half shafts out... then you wrestle with the wheel hub nut (holding the half shaft in). The question becomes - what to do with the front suspension... probably GT3 lower control arms, GT2 wheel carriers, and most of the suspension mods mentioned above. There are some issues though... the PSM and ABS are setup for AWD, so Im not sure if its wise / safe to assume the 4S's system will work. A switch to a standard C2 ECU might be a good move. ---
In the end - for my car - I think keeping the AWD will be the way to go for the foreseeable future. I still remember some crazy slides I recovered from by just staying in the throttle and letting the front end claw its way back on line. Several times when I used to run with an instructor he'd look over and say "well you paid for AWD, glad to see you're putting it to use."
There are guys on here that know much more about the suspension mods so I have nothing valuable to add there - but I've spent some time researching the conversion of our car to 2WD... Since our 4S's are based on the Turbo chassis, check out Tom Kerr's posts in the 996 Turbo section (also on 6Speedonline)... he did an amazing conversion to a full race care. great work.
In short you have to disconnect the front drive shaft - then start dismantling the front diff in order to get the half shafts out... then you wrestle with the wheel hub nut (holding the half shaft in). The question becomes - what to do with the front suspension... probably GT3 lower control arms, GT2 wheel carriers, and most of the suspension mods mentioned above. There are some issues though... the PSM and ABS are setup for AWD, so Im not sure if its wise / safe to assume the 4S's system will work. A switch to a standard C2 ECU might be a good move. ---
In the end - for my car - I think keeping the AWD will be the way to go for the foreseeable future. I still remember some crazy slides I recovered from by just staying in the throttle and letting the front end claw its way back on line. Several times when I used to run with an instructor he'd look over and say "well you paid for AWD, glad to see you're putting it to use."
![Wink](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
#14
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While I'm fond of harping on seat time, you might find this article I wrote interesting:
http://hcp.pca.org/aircooled/AirCooledSpring2010.pdf
Most of my columns focus on driver skill, because that’s the most important factor to becoming faster on the track. However, with track season approaching, many people wonder what they can do to their “cars” to improve their lap-times. Most people, myself included, set some money and time aside to make “improvements” during the off-season. Of course, safety improvements should always be considered prior to performance improvements. Injury or death is far more unpleasant than being half a second slower.
So, what are the best performance upgrades to do to your car? You’ll hear many suggestions running the gamut when you ask around. But, I suggest a more analytical approach. By breaking down the desirable attributes of race cars, and giving each one a score, we can evaluate performance upgrades to determine if some offer more “bang for the buck” than others.
Racetracks, by their nature, are a series of straight segments and corners. The majority of race tracks have more “straight” pavement than “curved” pavement. This means, more time will be spent on the straights than in the turns. Because of this, linear acceleration is the most desirable attribute for a race car. The more linear acceleration you have, the faster you’ll be able to get to the next turn. Let’s give linear acceleration a score of 5 points.
For every action there is an equal an opposite reaction – linear deceleration is the opposite of acceleration. Being able to slow the car down as quickly as possible is a close second to linear acceleration.We want to spend as little time as possible on the brakes because that will give us more time to be on the gas (ever hear “more gas, less brakes”?), so let’s give linear deceleration a score of 4 points.
That pretty much uses up the straights, now we move onto the corners. Cornering power – our ability to carry speed through the corners – is the next important attribute of a race car, and deserves a score of 3 points.
Controllability, how well the car can handle upsets in weight transfer and how well the car responds to corrections from the driver, is the next player in our equation with a score of 2 points.
And finally, top speed, which really plays quite a small factor in most production sports cars, is our final scoring element at 1 point.
Now that we have our grading criteria, we can plan our upgrades. Let’s compare a horsepower increase, from a performance ECU chip and an after-market exhaust, to stickier R-compound track tires. The HP upgrades will get more power to the rear wheels, propelling the car down the straights quicker (linear acceleration at 5 points) and will increase the top speed (1 point), giving it a score of 6 points. The increased traction of the track tires, however, will increase cornering ability (3 points) and will increase braking ability (linear deceleration at 4 points). That gives the track tires a total score of 7 points – higher than the power upgrades. If both modifications cost about the same, the track tires have more potential to reduce lap times. This also explains how some cars, although slower on the straights, can turn faster lap times.
Let’s look at some other examples: brake upgrades (linear deceleration) = 4 points; corner balance and wheel alignment (cornering power and controllability) = 5 points; spring/shock upgrades to improve weight transfer characteristics (cornering power and controllability) = 5 points; reducing aerodynamic drag (linear acceleration and top speed) = 6 points; reducing total vehicle weight (linear acceleration and cornering power) = 8 points; upgrading to a limited slip differential (controllability) = 2 points.
Now, it’s important to point out that this is all on a relative scale – not an absolute scale. It’s improper to say, “Removing my rear view mirrors will reduce my aerodynamic drag, so that’ll make me faster than putting in a limited slip differential!”What this grading system is supposed to analyze is what modifications have the “potential” to offer the greatest reward. If you can make a 911 have the aerodynamic characteristics of a formula car, that would make a larger difference in lap times than anything you could do with the differential. However, the controllability increase of an LSD will be more noticeable than minor aerodynamic enhancements.
Similarly, reducing weight to reach a target horsepower-to-weight ratio, rather than increasing engine performance to reach the same ratio, will yield the faster lap times.
Plan your winter modifications carefully and next time we’ll focus on getting more out of your (now faster) car by improving the driver.
I’ll meet you at the apex!
Van Svenson
So, what are the best performance upgrades to do to your car? You’ll hear many suggestions running the gamut when you ask around. But, I suggest a more analytical approach. By breaking down the desirable attributes of race cars, and giving each one a score, we can evaluate performance upgrades to determine if some offer more “bang for the buck” than others.
Racetracks, by their nature, are a series of straight segments and corners. The majority of race tracks have more “straight” pavement than “curved” pavement. This means, more time will be spent on the straights than in the turns. Because of this, linear acceleration is the most desirable attribute for a race car. The more linear acceleration you have, the faster you’ll be able to get to the next turn. Let’s give linear acceleration a score of 5 points.
For every action there is an equal an opposite reaction – linear deceleration is the opposite of acceleration. Being able to slow the car down as quickly as possible is a close second to linear acceleration.We want to spend as little time as possible on the brakes because that will give us more time to be on the gas (ever hear “more gas, less brakes”?), so let’s give linear deceleration a score of 4 points.
That pretty much uses up the straights, now we move onto the corners. Cornering power – our ability to carry speed through the corners – is the next important attribute of a race car, and deserves a score of 3 points.
Controllability, how well the car can handle upsets in weight transfer and how well the car responds to corrections from the driver, is the next player in our equation with a score of 2 points.
And finally, top speed, which really plays quite a small factor in most production sports cars, is our final scoring element at 1 point.
Now that we have our grading criteria, we can plan our upgrades. Let’s compare a horsepower increase, from a performance ECU chip and an after-market exhaust, to stickier R-compound track tires. The HP upgrades will get more power to the rear wheels, propelling the car down the straights quicker (linear acceleration at 5 points) and will increase the top speed (1 point), giving it a score of 6 points. The increased traction of the track tires, however, will increase cornering ability (3 points) and will increase braking ability (linear deceleration at 4 points). That gives the track tires a total score of 7 points – higher than the power upgrades. If both modifications cost about the same, the track tires have more potential to reduce lap times. This also explains how some cars, although slower on the straights, can turn faster lap times.
Let’s look at some other examples: brake upgrades (linear deceleration) = 4 points; corner balance and wheel alignment (cornering power and controllability) = 5 points; spring/shock upgrades to improve weight transfer characteristics (cornering power and controllability) = 5 points; reducing aerodynamic drag (linear acceleration and top speed) = 6 points; reducing total vehicle weight (linear acceleration and cornering power) = 8 points; upgrading to a limited slip differential (controllability) = 2 points.
Now, it’s important to point out that this is all on a relative scale – not an absolute scale. It’s improper to say, “Removing my rear view mirrors will reduce my aerodynamic drag, so that’ll make me faster than putting in a limited slip differential!”What this grading system is supposed to analyze is what modifications have the “potential” to offer the greatest reward. If you can make a 911 have the aerodynamic characteristics of a formula car, that would make a larger difference in lap times than anything you could do with the differential. However, the controllability increase of an LSD will be more noticeable than minor aerodynamic enhancements.
Similarly, reducing weight to reach a target horsepower-to-weight ratio, rather than increasing engine performance to reach the same ratio, will yield the faster lap times.
Plan your winter modifications carefully and next time we’ll focus on getting more out of your (now faster) car by improving the driver.
I’ll meet you at the apex!
Van Svenson