Most recent excellence mag
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Three Wheelin'
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,553
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From: Downingtown, PA
Most recent excellence mag
Just received the newest issue of Excellence 2 days ago. Got around to reading it last night.
I find myself reading from the back to tthe front do to the focus on the 986/996 engine issue articles.
The past 3 months of excellence should be required reading for any 996/986 owner. It certainly would cut down on the new IMS/RMS questions.
This month focused on the RMS issues that have plagued these engines.
Unlike the IMS, there are many many examples of RMS failures.
It just seems that Porsche couldn't get this right.
The first version needed lube
The tool to install was to shallow
the revised tool needed no lube but the new seal had to be pushed in farther, and farther, and farther. Sounds like instructions for my favorite sport
Although the new PTFE seal seems much better and seems to help most owners. Can you imagine taking your car to the dealer (after buying it brand new) for an oil leak only to find out that the "go no go tool" didn't fit and you now needed a new (and later on a reman) engine?
That was an ugly time and yet the 986/996 are the cars that brought Porsche back to profitability. Go figure.
This issue also had the market analysis report for the 996/997.
A few things I found interesting:
They recommended staying away from 99 996 do to various issues (I can hear Ed screaming now....) I don't agree with the author on this one but it might just be part of the "buy the newest car you can afford" mantra.
And the market value assessment puts a C4S about $7K higher than a C2 with all other things being equal (year/condition/etc etc).
I love the look of the C4Ss but $7k seems kind of high.
I find myself reading from the back to tthe front do to the focus on the 986/996 engine issue articles.
The past 3 months of excellence should be required reading for any 996/986 owner. It certainly would cut down on the new IMS/RMS questions.
This month focused on the RMS issues that have plagued these engines.
Unlike the IMS, there are many many examples of RMS failures.
It just seems that Porsche couldn't get this right.
The first version needed lube
The tool to install was to shallow
the revised tool needed no lube but the new seal had to be pushed in farther, and farther, and farther. Sounds like instructions for my favorite sport
Although the new PTFE seal seems much better and seems to help most owners. Can you imagine taking your car to the dealer (after buying it brand new) for an oil leak only to find out that the "go no go tool" didn't fit and you now needed a new (and later on a reman) engine?
That was an ugly time and yet the 986/996 are the cars that brought Porsche back to profitability. Go figure.
This issue also had the market analysis report for the 996/997.
A few things I found interesting:
They recommended staying away from 99 996 do to various issues (I can hear Ed screaming now....) I don't agree with the author on this one but it might just be part of the "buy the newest car you can afford" mantra.
And the market value assessment puts a C4S about $7K higher than a C2 with all other things being equal (year/condition/etc etc).
I love the look of the C4Ss but $7k seems kind of high.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 11,801
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From: Kittery, Maine
I found my issue of Excellence in the mail box on Sun., forgot to check the mail Sat. Overall, Excellence is my farvorite Porsche mag, although Total 911 is a close second. I read the article on another weakness of our engines, but disagreed on staying away from a 99... mine has been nothing but reliable to date with only 51,500 miles on the odometer, purchased with 35k miles almost (sept) 4 years ago. Amazing how Porsche has continued to 'fiddle' with an RMS fix since it started.
Pro
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 547
Likes: 9
From: Sedona, AZ
To: Barn96
My MY99 Cab 6-speed has 53K miles and shows no signs (yet) of an RMS or IMS or?? failure. I, too, have the Savanna Beige/SP interior. Maybe that's the secret to long life!
I say drive and enjoy the 996s; life is short.
relinuca
My MY99 Cab 6-speed has 53K miles and shows no signs (yet) of an RMS or IMS or?? failure. I, too, have the Savanna Beige/SP interior. Maybe that's the secret to long life!
I say drive and enjoy the 996s; life is short.
relinuca
Parts Specialist
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did some say SCREAMING
so interstingly enough I had a convo about water cooled cars with my FAV p-car guy. He has an old (OLD) 911 and is thinking of buying a waterpumper. He wants one with a blown motor so he gets more motor building experience...when we talked about the advantages of the MKII over MKI - I agreed but said if the "project" was to gain knowledge I felt a 5 chain (MKI) was a better place to spend the energy because we should be seeing more of those coming due for motor rebuilds.. plus I like the "less refined" (ie no PSM, no NAV, no glovebox, less leather) look
staying away from 99' IS right for some reasons. porsche had many more issues with the early blocks, some of you know about the RMS line up tool.... basically the crank cradle was not in alignment with the case which caused the RMS to be so far off center it would never seal (IIRC there was a recent thread where a guy had to junk a perfectly good running motor for this problem) The issues around the early motors are real and if you have no interest in spending $15-20k fixing the thing.... it makes sense to stay clear...
that said, go read the "high milage 996 role call" thread and see how many people are super happy with their worthless 99's
for the record, I would buy a 99' over an 03' if I was able to account for the price involved in making it right (sort of like what Jake did to his track car)
or an 86'
so interstingly enough I had a convo about water cooled cars with my FAV p-car guy. He has an old (OLD) 911 and is thinking of buying a waterpumper. He wants one with a blown motor so he gets more motor building experience...when we talked about the advantages of the MKII over MKI - I agreed but said if the "project" was to gain knowledge I felt a 5 chain (MKI) was a better place to spend the energy because we should be seeing more of those coming due for motor rebuilds.. plus I like the "less refined" (ie no PSM, no NAV, no glovebox, less leather) look
staying away from 99' IS right for some reasons. porsche had many more issues with the early blocks, some of you know about the RMS line up tool.... basically the crank cradle was not in alignment with the case which caused the RMS to be so far off center it would never seal (IIRC there was a recent thread where a guy had to junk a perfectly good running motor for this problem) The issues around the early motors are real and if you have no interest in spending $15-20k fixing the thing.... it makes sense to stay clear...
that said, go read the "high milage 996 role call" thread and see how many people are super happy with their worthless 99's
for the record, I would buy a 99' over an 03' if I was able to account for the price involved in making it right (sort of like what Jake did to his track car)
or an 86'
Advanced
Joined: Aug 2010
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From: Silicon Valley, CA
Motor blown
My 996 '02 C2 M96 motor blown a few days ago at 91K miles. First look says it is IMS or maybe cam chain (I don't know the details of these issues yet).
I was told to read the Excellence magazine article but I haven't got around to it yet. Does anyone know how many of these early watercooled have blown and been replaced quietly by Porsche?
I was told to read the Excellence magazine article but I haven't got around to it yet. Does anyone know how many of these early watercooled have blown and been replaced quietly by Porsche?
Rennlist Member
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From: Northern NJ
I was told to read the Excellence magazine article but I haven't got around to it yet. Does anyone know how many of these early watercooled have blown and been replaced quietly by Porsche?
Sorry for your engine loss.
It's either all of them or two. Depends on what you read or who you listen to. You can spend days reading about what wonderful, finely tuned ..pieces of; excrement/precision machinery these engines are.
There are many hundreds of stories of cam chains jumping timing on the flat 6 engines resulting in $$$ rebuild/replacements. Most of them were from owners of 1965-1983 AIRCOOLED engines with the splash filled chain tensioners.
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Race Director
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 11,801
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From: Kittery, Maine
My 996 '02 C2 M96 motor blown a few days ago at 91K miles. First look says it is IMS or maybe cam chain (I don't know the details of these issues yet).
I was told to read the Excellence magazine article but I haven't got around to it yet. Does anyone know how many of these early watercooled have blown and been replaced quietly by Porsche?
I was told to read the Excellence magazine article but I haven't got around to it yet. Does anyone know how many of these early watercooled have blown and been replaced quietly by Porsche?
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From: Santa Barbara, CA
The chain tensioner issue on the 1964-1989 cars was way blown out of proportion. I drove a 77 over 100,000 without an issue, however I did install the mechanical stops to prevent a total collapse of the tensioner. My next car, a 1981, has the mechanical stop which I replaced with the 1984 chain tensioner oil feed design when it came out. This design once and for all solved the problem. If a car was properly maintained it rarely became an issue. (CIS air box explosions were a more common problem).
Advanced
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 63
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From: Silicon Valley, CA
Greenbe,
Sorry for your engine loss.
It's either all of them or two. Depends on what you read or who you listen to. You can spend days reading about what wonderful, finely tuned ..pieces of; excrement/precision machinery these engines are.
There are many hundreds of stories of cam chains jumping timing on the flat 6 engines resulting in $$$ rebuild/replacements. Most of them were from owners of 1965-1983 AIRCOOLED engines with the splash filled chain tensioners.
Sorry for your engine loss.
It's either all of them or two. Depends on what you read or who you listen to. You can spend days reading about what wonderful, finely tuned ..pieces of; excrement/precision machinery these engines are.
There are many hundreds of stories of cam chains jumping timing on the flat 6 engines resulting in $$$ rebuild/replacements. Most of them were from owners of 1965-1983 AIRCOOLED engines with the splash filled chain tensioners.
The discussion I had (live) was definitely about watercooled M96 MY02 in particular. He said the cam chains fail in two ways: A nearby oil pump shatters and the debris gets in the cam chain and destroys it. Or, it just breaks with no apparent cause. He was talking about it happening on one side but possibly affecting the other and needing to inspect that I wasn't quick enough to get all of that part. And he is saying, while you're in there you may as well replace the IMS preventatively.
Any pointers anyone has on these issues would be highly welcome. I'll be getting a copy of Excellence soon to read for myself.
Advanced
Joined: Aug 2010
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From: Silicon Valley, CA
Bought in Dec 06 at 53K miles. I really drove this car a lot, on many trips throughout CA and even through the Cascades up to Vancouver. It is a great car, and up to now all the issues have been drivable to the shop. The only one thing that happened was a water pump blew out but I was able to make it to the shop under power at low speed (with advice). This was my first tow.
Regarding the "buy the car with the highest mileage you can afford mantra" I kind of agree with that, but suggest you subtract $15K and keep it in reserve in case you need a new motor. And/or get a powertrain warranty you believe may actually pay (good luck on that).
Regarding the "buy the car with the highest mileage you can afford mantra" I kind of agree with that, but suggest you subtract $15K and keep it in reserve in case you need a new motor. And/or get a powertrain warranty you believe may actually pay (good luck on that).
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,894
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From: near Seattle
I've never seen a car company come out with the first model of a major redesign that didn't have teething issues. If you ever owned an older English car, you got the full force that some companies never got it right no matter how many redesigns they did.
Part of the problem w/ the furor over the 996 seems to be:
- an owner community that cried and gnashed their little teeth over the addition of water. BFD. Yes, there is/was an elegance to air cooling. But when pressed between consumer demands for more power and govt demands for pollution control--the cooler temps produced by water was the only solution. Even motorcycles have gone to water cooling. Get over it.
- there are a wave of people who are well funded, who can surf from one 911 model to the next, never getting out of warranty. For the most part, problems with design have little effect on them.
The second or third wave of owners have less money, buy the cars out of wedlock -- and now face design issues with minimal money and a car that was never meant to be friendly to shade-tree mechanics or casual owners.
I don't wish for high repair bills. But upkeep and refinement are what I'm willing to pay to drive something that isn't just a nicely made, Asian sewing machine. At some point, I'll probably sell the 996 when I'm not getting as much enjoyment from it as it costs.
This weekend I pulled into a traditional open-air drive-in restaurant. A modded Honda pulled into the place next to me. A couple of young kids looked over and said, "You have grey hair! We tried to keep up with you on that ramp. We figured you were younger."
"All this grey hair means is that I've already done everything that you're just starting to imagine you might like to do."
Part of the problem w/ the furor over the 996 seems to be:
- an owner community that cried and gnashed their little teeth over the addition of water. BFD. Yes, there is/was an elegance to air cooling. But when pressed between consumer demands for more power and govt demands for pollution control--the cooler temps produced by water was the only solution. Even motorcycles have gone to water cooling. Get over it.
- there are a wave of people who are well funded, who can surf from one 911 model to the next, never getting out of warranty. For the most part, problems with design have little effect on them.
The second or third wave of owners have less money, buy the cars out of wedlock -- and now face design issues with minimal money and a car that was never meant to be friendly to shade-tree mechanics or casual owners.
I don't wish for high repair bills. But upkeep and refinement are what I'm willing to pay to drive something that isn't just a nicely made, Asian sewing machine. At some point, I'll probably sell the 996 when I'm not getting as much enjoyment from it as it costs.
This weekend I pulled into a traditional open-air drive-in restaurant. A modded Honda pulled into the place next to me. A couple of young kids looked over and said, "You have grey hair! We tried to keep up with you on that ramp. We figured you were younger."
"All this grey hair means is that I've already done everything that you're just starting to imagine you might like to do."
Advanced
Joined: Aug 2010
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From: Silicon Valley, CA
Amen.
The car is really fun to drive. (see my other reply).
My complaint is there should be a little more openness with known defects, such as a service notice. Then people can decide if they want to replace the parts proactively. I don't know how this would work in practice, but of course Porsche knows about it.
Of course any major new engine has issues I agree that is why I bought the 4th year of it (6 if you include boxster).
The car is really fun to drive. (see my other reply).
My complaint is there should be a little more openness with known defects, such as a service notice. Then people can decide if they want to replace the parts proactively. I don't know how this would work in practice, but of course Porsche knows about it.
Of course any major new engine has issues I agree that is why I bought the 4th year of it (6 if you include boxster).
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 105
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From: Jacksonville, FL
The only solution to your problem is good Scotch & a cigar. Have 1 or 2 doubles, call a cab and go out to the local meat market. Meet the best looker in the bar- but she must be several years your junior & take her home.
When you wake up in the morning, you will be worried about a whole new problem.
When you wake up in the morning, you will be worried about a whole new problem.