Is AWD less fun to drive?
04-20-2010, 10:57 PM
#31
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Winter tires and a C4 - mine gets driven year round here in Minnesota. Nothing quite like it on a frozen lake. On a more serious note, there have been a couple times where the AWD helped me out of a flawed maneuver. Nice to have, when it happens.
04-21-2010, 12:42 AM
#32
Maybe the C4 is more in its place in deutscheland wiggling around a little with grandma behind the wheel going top speeds. Those old ladies over there will eat you alive on the autobahn. No mercy what so ever from those little ladies.
05-31-2012, 05:27 PM
#33
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03 C4 Drivetrain play
Anyone have any experience/knowledge of how much "play" in the C4 drivetrain is normal (whatver normal is)?
Just took my car into the dealership for a checkup because there seems to be definite backlash in the drivetrain when changing gears. However, the higher you rev the motor between gears, the less the sound/effect. But, if you pop it into 2nd, say, at around 1500rpm, you cna hear a definite slop or clunk coming from the rear end of the car.
Drove it with a senior tech from the dealership, and then he drove it with the shop forman. Then they dropped the pans off to see if they could find any play....they couldn't! Bloody odd! They told me to take the car home and they'll find another C4 of the same generation and check it to see if it has the same traits.
Opinions anyone??
Les.
Just took my car into the dealership for a checkup because there seems to be definite backlash in the drivetrain when changing gears. However, the higher you rev the motor between gears, the less the sound/effect. But, if you pop it into 2nd, say, at around 1500rpm, you cna hear a definite slop or clunk coming from the rear end of the car.
Drove it with a senior tech from the dealership, and then he drove it with the shop forman. Then they dropped the pans off to see if they could find any play....they couldn't! Bloody odd! They told me to take the car home and they'll find another C4 of the same generation and check it to see if it has the same traits.
Opinions anyone??
Les.
05-31-2012, 05:36 PM
#34
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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03 C4 Drivetrain play
Anyone have any experience/knowledge of how much "play" in the C4 drivetrain is normal (whatver normal is)?
Just took my car into the dealership for a checkup because there seems to be definite backlash in the drivetrain when changing gears. However, the higher you rev the motor between gears, the less the sound/effect. But, if you pop it into 2nd, say, at around 1500rpm, you cna hear a definite slop or clunk coming from the rear end of the car.
Drove it with a senior tech from the dealership, and then he drove it with the shop forman. Then they dropped the pans off to see if they could find any play....they couldn't! Bloody odd! They told me to take the car home and they'll find another C4 of the same generation and check it to see if it has the same traits.
Opinions anyone??
Les.
Just took my car into the dealership for a checkup because there seems to be definite backlash in the drivetrain when changing gears. However, the higher you rev the motor between gears, the less the sound/effect. But, if you pop it into 2nd, say, at around 1500rpm, you cna hear a definite slop or clunk coming from the rear end of the car.
Drove it with a senior tech from the dealership, and then he drove it with the shop forman. Then they dropped the pans off to see if they could find any play....they couldn't! Bloody odd! They told me to take the car home and they'll find another C4 of the same generation and check it to see if it has the same traits.
Opinions anyone??
Les.
06-10-2012, 09:57 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
"Our goal for the C4 were to endow it with the same agility as the C2 while giving it more traction than the C2. We aimed for better directional stability in crosswinds as well as clear and smooth steering behavior up to the limit of adhesion. We gave the C4 a higher limit of control than the C2 has." Explained Thomas Herold, (Porsche) project manager for the latest Carrera 4.
"After driving the new Carrera both on the track and over the road, I would have to agree that Mr. Harold's project has met all of its design objectives." - David Colman
"This newest Carrera 4 effort is delightful - the all-wheel drive system in this car is totally transparent to the driver." - Bruce Anderson
Excerpts from Pete Stout's story on the New C4 in the May 1999 issue of Excellence.
IMHO - The beauty of Porsche is the choices we now have in these wonderful Sports-cars. For an everyday year-round driver in the Pacific Northwest, the C4 was my choice.
"After driving the new Carrera both on the track and over the road, I would have to agree that Mr. Harold's project has met all of its design objectives." - David Colman
"This newest Carrera 4 effort is delightful - the all-wheel drive system in this car is totally transparent to the driver." - Bruce Anderson
Excerpts from Pete Stout's story on the New C4 in the May 1999 issue of Excellence.
IMHO - The beauty of Porsche is the choices we now have in these wonderful Sports-cars. For an everyday year-round driver in the Pacific Northwest, the C4 was my choice.
06-11-2012, 12:46 AM
#37
my neighbour who had an older 911 said that i shoulda gone for the c4 given the rain here (and YAY! got my 02 C2 last week from a guy that honoured the deal we had so I was able to get a PPI done and was able to close on it!!!)
i guess if youre going to drive it every day in dec, jan and feb then i can see what the appeal might be given our road conditions here. but i figure that the mdx was made for days like that!
i guess if youre going to drive it every day in dec, jan and feb then i can see what the appeal might be given our road conditions here. but i figure that the mdx was made for days like that!
06-11-2012, 02:17 AM
#38
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
My last car was a 95 c2 with psm and a lsd. My present car is a 2000 c4 cab. The 95 was raw and a wonderful seat-of-your pants car.
For a driver here in Seattle? The C4 is the car of choice- fabulous in the rain, tons of power and on the snow, you should experience it for yourself. I would LOVE to see a C4 up against anything in the snow on the highway. There is no comparison.
Oh, on the dry- yeah, a bit more weight, etc... but would 99% of drivers even feel it... heck no. After 25 years of driving 911s, I bet that most drivers if they weren't told, could not even tell they were driving a C4 or a C2 (on the dry, of course.)
Every 996 (and 911) made is a blast. Very few drivers can ever put one to its full potential. Drive both, and chose what you like, because they are both fantastic cars.
For a driver here in Seattle? The C4 is the car of choice- fabulous in the rain, tons of power and on the snow, you should experience it for yourself. I would LOVE to see a C4 up against anything in the snow on the highway. There is no comparison.
Oh, on the dry- yeah, a bit more weight, etc... but would 99% of drivers even feel it... heck no. After 25 years of driving 911s, I bet that most drivers if they weren't told, could not even tell they were driving a C4 or a C2 (on the dry, of course.)
Every 996 (and 911) made is a blast. Very few drivers can ever put one to its full potential. Drive both, and chose what you like, because they are both fantastic cars.
06-11-2012, 12:44 PM
#39
Drifting
Yawl need to find a way to differentiate between the earlier, practically useless VC implemented C4, and the newer later models that use an electromagnetic clutch under control of the TC system.
The VC version never provides more that about 5% engine torque unless you have a sustained period of unabated rear wheelspin vs the front. And if TC/LSD is enabled that quite simply aen't gonna happen.
The VC version never provides more that about 5% engine torque unless you have a sustained period of unabated rear wheelspin vs the front. And if TC/LSD is enabled that quite simply aen't gonna happen.
06-11-2012, 12:52 PM
#40
Drifting
Both my Boxster and my 996 Turbo (awd) are a blast to drive. AFIAK I've never triggered the awd save once or twice shortly after I got the car and only for a brief time when
I think the traction control light flashed
Yes, that was TC "preventing" AWD operation.
when I gave the car alot of throttle in a lower gear. The Turbo just gets up and moves.
Have had the Turbo in some marginal traction conditions (mainly wet roads in varying amounts of rain fall --drizzly to heavy downpour) but in these conditions I am really careful to avoid over applying the throttle.
My preference is to be able to control the car without having to rely upon any electronic wizardry. I laugh a bit when a guy in a pick up truck or some other vehicle has to spin the tires big time in the wet when pulling away from a stop.
As if it means something (other than the driver's a doofus).
Oh no track time.
In short I can't tell the Turbo's awd by the way it drives, handles or feels.
That's because with only a 5% engine torque level it simply has no effect.
It feels of course different in some repects from the Boxster but it still feels great on the road, from driving around town to freeway driving and even the occasional jaunt over my favorite mountain roads nearby (Yeehaaaa!).
I can warn you that tossing around a Porsche is going to see you go through tires like Oprah goes through Twinkies.
Drive examples of both 2wd and awd cars and see what you like.
My preference would be to have the power of the Turbo in 2wd. Why? Cause car simpler and a bit lighter, (though the extra weight up front might help grip at the front), has more trunk space and has a simpler gas tank. Since I use my Turbo for GT driving (several thousand mile long road trips whenever I can manage to get the time off) a larger front trunk and a larger and simpler gas tank which the OBC doesn't have to futz around to arrive at the remaining fuel after half tank
is my reason.
It has nothing to do with the feel of or the handling of the car.
Sincerely,
Macster.
I think the traction control light flashed
Yes, that was TC "preventing" AWD operation.
when I gave the car alot of throttle in a lower gear. The Turbo just gets up and moves.
Have had the Turbo in some marginal traction conditions (mainly wet roads in varying amounts of rain fall --drizzly to heavy downpour) but in these conditions I am really careful to avoid over applying the throttle.
My preference is to be able to control the car without having to rely upon any electronic wizardry. I laugh a bit when a guy in a pick up truck or some other vehicle has to spin the tires big time in the wet when pulling away from a stop.
As if it means something (other than the driver's a doofus).
Oh no track time.
In short I can't tell the Turbo's awd by the way it drives, handles or feels.
That's because with only a 5% engine torque level it simply has no effect.
It feels of course different in some repects from the Boxster but it still feels great on the road, from driving around town to freeway driving and even the occasional jaunt over my favorite mountain roads nearby (Yeehaaaa!).
I can warn you that tossing around a Porsche is going to see you go through tires like Oprah goes through Twinkies.
Drive examples of both 2wd and awd cars and see what you like.
My preference would be to have the power of the Turbo in 2wd. Why? Cause car simpler and a bit lighter, (though the extra weight up front might help grip at the front), has more trunk space and has a simpler gas tank. Since I use my Turbo for GT driving (several thousand mile long road trips whenever I can manage to get the time off) a larger front trunk and a larger and simpler gas tank which the OBC doesn't have to futz around to arrive at the remaining fuel after half tank
is my reason.
It has nothing to do with the feel of or the handling of the car.
Sincerely,
Macster.
06-11-2012, 12:58 PM
#41
Drifting
My last car was a 95 c2 with psm and a lsd. My present car is a 2000 c4 cab. The 95 was raw and a wonderful seat-of-your pants car.
For a driver here in Seattle? The C4 is the car of choice- fabulous in the rain, tons of power and on the snow, you should experience it for yourself.
I would LOVE to see a C4 up against anything in the snow on the highway.
Yes, the TC/LSD system becomes so active you cannot move forward. Turn off these nannies and use a little, short period of, disparate F/R wheelspin to "set" the VC and you can now move forward, at least until the VC cools and becomes flaccid once again.
There is no comparison.
Oh, on the dry- yeah, a bit more weight, etc... but would 99% of drivers even feel it... heck no. After 25 years of driving 911s, I bet that most drivers if they weren't told, could not even tell they were driving a C4 or a C2 (on the dry, of course.)
Every 996 (and 911) made is a blast. Very few drivers can ever put one to its full potential. Drive both, and chose what you like, because they are both fantastic cars.
For a driver here in Seattle? The C4 is the car of choice- fabulous in the rain, tons of power and on the snow, you should experience it for yourself.
I would LOVE to see a C4 up against anything in the snow on the highway.
Yes, the TC/LSD system becomes so active you cannot move forward. Turn off these nannies and use a little, short period of, disparate F/R wheelspin to "set" the VC and you can now move forward, at least until the VC cools and becomes flaccid once again.
There is no comparison.
Oh, on the dry- yeah, a bit more weight, etc... but would 99% of drivers even feel it... heck no. After 25 years of driving 911s, I bet that most drivers if they weren't told, could not even tell they were driving a C4 or a C2 (on the dry, of course.)
Every 996 (and 911) made is a blast. Very few drivers can ever put one to its full potential. Drive both, and chose what you like, because they are both fantastic cars.
06-11-2012, 01:08 PM
#42
Ive driven both extensively, very had to tell the diff between the two, except for the steering.... I prefer the steering feel of the C4, I bit heavier when the front wheel "activates". The C4 is more for stability rather than AWD function.... but that is the notion that people won't accept....
06-11-2012, 01:10 PM
#43
Drifting
It just occurred to me that perhaps you think the Porsche AWD system is full time?
It is not. The 996 system uses a fluid coupling in a transfer housing filled with discs, kind of like a multi-plate wet clutch. Every other disc is driven by the driveshaft from the transmission to this transfer housing. The other set of discs is connected to the shaft that transmits torque to the front diff.
If the speed of the discs driven by the driveshaft from the transmission increase to much as would be the case if the rear tires were spinning on snow ice or even on dry pavement this difference in speed of rotation heats up this fluid and as it heats up it gets very thick. Thick enough to transmit torque from the spinning discs to the nearly stationary discs.
Up to 30% of the engine's torque can be transmitted through this clutch disc pack.
Only if, after, you have turned TC/LSD off and have purposely endured a sustained period of unabated (slippry surface) rear wheelspin in order to "set" the VC fluid. And remember that in wintertime the OAT is operating in opposition to systained VC functionality.
As the front wheels begin to rotate and the car begins to move the rotational speed of the two different clutch discs becomes the same and the fluid cools down below its critcal temperature and becomes more fluid and no more torque is transmitted to the front diff and axles and wheels/tires.
The fluid reacts quite rapidly.
Yes, but in "both" directions.
IIRC in just a tenth of a second or less. It is a nice and relatively trouble free system. The only better system (according to some experts) is the system used in the 997 which does away with the special fluid and instead uses a drivetrain controller working thorugh an electromechanical/hydraulic system to force the clutch discs to be applied to one another. The reaction time is quicker and perhaps even less abrupt than the 996 system. It is supposedly lighter too.
Thus only in very marginal traction situations would the awd even come into play and then it remains active for just a short time, unless of course traction is so poor than the rear tires continue to spin and the car remaind stationary or nearly so.
With the newer 997 system a simple mod would allow you to manually, pre-emptively, switch the front drive fully "on". The key would be to be extremely diligent in having it OFF except on a KNOWN slippery surface.
But once the car begins moving the contribution by the front wheels/tires drops rapidly diminishing to zero in just a short time, probably just a short time after the front and rear wheel speeds are equal again.
Sincerely,
Macster.
It is not. The 996 system uses a fluid coupling in a transfer housing filled with discs, kind of like a multi-plate wet clutch. Every other disc is driven by the driveshaft from the transmission to this transfer housing. The other set of discs is connected to the shaft that transmits torque to the front diff.
If the speed of the discs driven by the driveshaft from the transmission increase to much as would be the case if the rear tires were spinning on snow ice or even on dry pavement this difference in speed of rotation heats up this fluid and as it heats up it gets very thick. Thick enough to transmit torque from the spinning discs to the nearly stationary discs.
Up to 30% of the engine's torque can be transmitted through this clutch disc pack.
Only if, after, you have turned TC/LSD off and have purposely endured a sustained period of unabated (slippry surface) rear wheelspin in order to "set" the VC fluid. And remember that in wintertime the OAT is operating in opposition to systained VC functionality.
As the front wheels begin to rotate and the car begins to move the rotational speed of the two different clutch discs becomes the same and the fluid cools down below its critcal temperature and becomes more fluid and no more torque is transmitted to the front diff and axles and wheels/tires.
The fluid reacts quite rapidly.
Yes, but in "both" directions.
IIRC in just a tenth of a second or less. It is a nice and relatively trouble free system. The only better system (according to some experts) is the system used in the 997 which does away with the special fluid and instead uses a drivetrain controller working thorugh an electromechanical/hydraulic system to force the clutch discs to be applied to one another. The reaction time is quicker and perhaps even less abrupt than the 996 system. It is supposedly lighter too.
Thus only in very marginal traction situations would the awd even come into play and then it remains active for just a short time, unless of course traction is so poor than the rear tires continue to spin and the car remaind stationary or nearly so.
With the newer 997 system a simple mod would allow you to manually, pre-emptively, switch the front drive fully "on". The key would be to be extremely diligent in having it OFF except on a KNOWN slippery surface.
But once the car begins moving the contribution by the front wheels/tires drops rapidly diminishing to zero in just a short time, probably just a short time after the front and rear wheel speeds are equal again.
Sincerely,
Macster.
06-11-2012, 01:46 PM
#45
Nordschleife Master
First time TC off. I was at a stop sign on a very sandy back road. I dropped the clutch at 3500 rpm and pulled away. Power went directly to the front.
It felt like I just blew the motor. HP felt like it had been cut it half. It crawled away from 1st to 2nd and I thought I screwed something up so I switched to 3rd and 4th and let off the throttle and then power was restored to the rear wheels.
2nd time TC on. I was at the track and my left rear wheel drove over coolant. I saw no PSM light come on but I instantly felt like I just blew my motor. I did not know I had driven over coolant at this time. I powered out and the power was just not there, worried I let off and then got back on the power a little latter to try and see if there was any problem with the engine and power was back again.
I went in the pits thinking the worse but got out and saw nothing wrong. I went back out and then I noticed the wet coolant marks in one of the corners, then I knew that was what had happened.
I know it does work. Does it work much. Not really. I have been in a couple slides and the track where I can grantee you the front were sent more power the 5% but not like the other times. PSM did come on but I think by the time PSM cuts in power has all ready been transferred to the front.
Personally I think the VC is better then the new 997.2 AWD. The new system is too good and constantly controls each wheels power. Where as the old system is 95% rear wheel drive until you really need it.