First track day in a 996 a bit rough, looking for tips
07-13-2009, 04:31 PM
#1
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: WA
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First track day in a 996 a bit rough, looking for tips
Background
* I have been to 4 other BMW High Performance Driving Event days with my '01 330i, and felt pretty comfortable and competent at my last one (April '08).
* All of my driving events have been at Pacific Raceways in Kent, WA.
First Track Day in a 996
* I was at Pacific Raceways on Friday, 7/10, with my '02 996 C2
* My 996 is a bone-stock setup with new PS2s (~500 miles on them) and a new 4-wheel alignment
The Result... Hmmm
* I felt almost like a rookie out there.
* Any tips on driving a 996 on the track?
* I have been to 4 other BMW High Performance Driving Event days with my '01 330i, and felt pretty comfortable and competent at my last one (April '08).
* All of my driving events have been at Pacific Raceways in Kent, WA.
First Track Day in a 996
* I was at Pacific Raceways on Friday, 7/10, with my '02 996 C2
* My 996 is a bone-stock setup with new PS2s (~500 miles on them) and a new 4-wheel alignment
The Result... Hmmm
* I felt almost like a rookie out there.
* I wasn't happy with my driving. 
* My lines were all messed up *The 996 pushed way more than my 330i (more power + rear weight bias, presumably).
* The 996 seemed to get knocked off line more easily with track irregularities* Is this because of a lighter front end?
* Is a stock 996 C2 less firmly suspended than a Sport Pkg 330i?
* I don't think my shifting was right. * I didn't feel I used the 6-speed well.
* 5-speed 330i vs 6-speed 996 seemed to mess me up
Any Words of Wisdom?* Any tips on driving a 996 on the track?
* I need 'em 'cause I kinda' sucked on Friday 
07-13-2009, 04:52 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
IMO it's tough to give advice after the fact. Sounds like you didn't have an instructor riding with you; next time, have an instructor in the right seat. That will help more than 10 pages of recommendations.
07-13-2009, 06:10 PM
#3
Parts Specialist
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
post alignment numbers
tire pressures F & R (remember it was about 85 out which makes the ground about 100+?)
Stock US standard ? or stock ROW ?
dont beat on yourself, how many miles have you driven the 996... is it new to you?
what did the instructor tell you - what did you tell them (assume there was one right?)
advise.... there is an autocross in Bremerton this weekend
- more seat time !!! more seat time !!! more seat time !!!
tire pressures F & R (remember it was about 85 out which makes the ground about 100+?)
Stock US standard ? or stock ROW ?
dont beat on yourself, how many miles have you driven the 996... is it new to you?
what did the instructor tell you - what did you tell them (assume there was one right?)
advise.... there is an autocross in Bremerton this weekend
- more seat time !!! more seat time !!! more seat time !!!
07-13-2009, 06:18 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
You have to be more deliberate about driving a good line in a car that understeers. Make sure you're at a speed where you *can* turn in, and if your line is right, you can get on the gas quite early and rocket out.
Definitely, the technique to drive a rear engine car is different than a front engine car.
You'll also be rewarded once you've mastered more advanced techniques - like trail braking and throttle steering. This will help keep weight on the front wheels and give them more traction.
+1 for having an instructor, especially an instructor with 911 experience. If you didn't have an instructor - well then shame on the organization. No one with only 4 days of experience is ready to be completely solo.
Definitely, the technique to drive a rear engine car is different than a front engine car.
You'll also be rewarded once you've mastered more advanced techniques - like trail braking and throttle steering. This will help keep weight on the front wheels and give them more traction.
+1 for having an instructor, especially an instructor with 911 experience. If you didn't have an instructor - well then shame on the organization. No one with only 4 days of experience is ready to be completely solo.
07-13-2009, 06:33 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
Don't beat yourself up over a rough day at the track where you didn't meet your own expectations. My advice is to try it again w/ a good instructor and get back to the very basics:
1. follow an experienced driver to get a feel for the correct line
2. always do your braking in a straight line as you approach the turn
3. slow down enough so you can late-apex each turn
4. gradually increase throttle as you unwind coming out of the turn
Don't try to be fast - try to be good, then perfect before you try at higher speeds. Spend your time feeling the car until you have a high comfort level and remember, you're having FUN!
1. follow an experienced driver to get a feel for the correct line
2. always do your braking in a straight line as you approach the turn
3. slow down enough so you can late-apex each turn
4. gradually increase throttle as you unwind coming out of the turn
Don't try to be fast - try to be good, then perfect before you try at higher speeds. Spend your time feeling the car until you have a high comfort level and remember, you're having FUN!
07-13-2009, 06:46 PM
#6
Race Car
Coming from tracking a BMW (e46 M3 in my case) I can tell you many aspects of driving a 911 quickly are much different. Luckily the first vehicle I tracked was a bike and I found over time that falling back on many of my bike techniques helped me to become much quicker in the 911 than I was in the M3 (though it took about a year to get to that point).
Smooth, precise inputs are a must in an 996. You can't man handle the thing, correct mid corner etc like you can in the BMW. You really need to be aware of contact patch management in the 911 as the throttle on and off effect it much more in the 911 and in very drastic swings.
Hang in there and don't be frustrated. Pick up the Keith code Twist of the wrist books and give them a good read. Pay special attention to the contact patch managent talk.
Andy
Smooth, precise inputs are a must in an 996. You can't man handle the thing, correct mid corner etc like you can in the BMW. You really need to be aware of contact patch management in the 911 as the throttle on and off effect it much more in the 911 and in very drastic swings.
Hang in there and don't be frustrated. Pick up the Keith code Twist of the wrist books and give them a good read. Pay special attention to the contact patch managent talk.
Andy
07-13-2009, 07:32 PM
#7
Just as a guess based on my experience with new 911 drivers: I would wager it's your braking technique. Either (1) too much brake too late or (2) an abrupt pedal release. Either situation results in horrible push. Dive bombing a corner will result in no friction available for turning (aka push). And releasing the brake too quickly will transfer weight to the rear resulting in a smaller contact patch for turning (aka push). And usually, dive bombing a corner will result in 1+2 since you have to release the brakes abruptly to make the corner, which equals retarded levels of push.
For most corners in a 911 you should be applying gas at the same time you move the steering wheel - unless you are trail braking of course. Smoothly apply the gas until you know you've make the corner (usually around apex) and then foot to the floor at apex.
To facilitate this, I typically instruct new 911 drivers to brake a tad earlier and roll off the brakes smoothly to allow a smooth transition to power at turn in. Not to drag the brakes, but to release smoothly. This allows the car to remain set during the turn. And then I yell GAS GAS GAS until track out.
Below is a short video illustrating what I mean.
FWIW, I actually found that my 911 would turn in BETTER than most other cars I've driven on the track. Alignment helps a lot.
[HD works]
The 996 seemed to get knocked off line more easily with track irregularities
Any tips on driving a 996 on the track?
Oh, and don't lift in a corner
-td
Trending Topics
07-13-2009, 08:23 PM
#8
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I agree with most of the above, but if you were my student I would probably tell you to relax, try not pushing so hard, and just get more seat time. 911s do take more to get used to, and even more so than e46s, the driver makes a big difference on the understeer situation. They turn in very well under trail braking, and respond more lively to throttle inputs in comparison. I would go so far to say that they're harder to drive.
One other point, I really think it's a shame how soft the suspension is on these cars stock...
One other point, I really think it's a shame how soft the suspension is on these cars stock...
07-14-2009, 02:08 AM
#10
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: WA
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did have an instructor, and he was actually pretty good. I don't think he had any Porsche experience, though. I definitely could have used some of the advice folks have responded with on Friday!
07-14-2009, 02:19 AM
#11
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: WA
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alignment, front: Caster @ 7.95 & 7.81; Camber @ -.01 & .04; Toe @ .09, .09 & .19 total
Alignment, rear: Camber @ -1.09 & -1.01; Toe @ .09, .09 & .19 total
dont beat on yourself, how many miles have you driven the 996... is it new to you?
what did the instructor tell you - what did you tell them (assume there was one right?)
advise.... there is an autocross in Bremerton this weekend - more seat time !!! more seat time !!! more seat time !!!
- more seat time !!! more seat time !!! more seat time !!!
07-14-2009, 02:20 AM
#12
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: WA
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You have to be more deliberate about driving a good line in a car that understeers. Make sure you're at a speed where you *can* turn in, and if your line is right, you can get on the gas quite early and rocket out.
Definitely, the technique to drive a rear engine car is different than a front engine car.
You'll also be rewarded once you've mastered more advanced techniques - like trail braking and throttle steering. This will help keep weight on the front wheels and give them more traction.
+1 for having an instructor, especially an instructor with 911 experience. If you didn't have an instructor - well then shame on the organization. No one with only 4 days of experience is ready to be completely solo.
Definitely, the technique to drive a rear engine car is different than a front engine car.
You'll also be rewarded once you've mastered more advanced techniques - like trail braking and throttle steering. This will help keep weight on the front wheels and give them more traction.
+1 for having an instructor, especially an instructor with 911 experience. If you didn't have an instructor - well then shame on the organization. No one with only 4 days of experience is ready to be completely solo.
07-14-2009, 02:24 AM
#13
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: WA
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Coming from tracking a BMW (e46 M3 in my case) I can tell you many aspects of driving a 911 quickly are much different. Luckily the first vehicle I tracked was a bike and I found over time that falling back on many of my bike techniques helped me to become much quicker in the 911 than I was in the M3 (though it took about a year to get to that point).
Smooth, precise inputs are a must in an 996. You can't man handle the thing, correct mid corner etc like you can in the BMW. You really need to be aware of contact patch management in the 911 as the throttle on and off effect it much more in the 911 and in very drastic swings.
Hang in there and don't be frustrated. Pick up the Keith code Twist of the wrist books and give them a good read. Pay special attention to the contact patch managent talk.
Andy
Smooth, precise inputs are a must in an 996. You can't man handle the thing, correct mid corner etc like you can in the BMW. You really need to be aware of contact patch management in the 911 as the throttle on and off effect it much more in the 911 and in very drastic swings.
Hang in there and don't be frustrated. Pick up the Keith code Twist of the wrist books and give them a good read. Pay special attention to the contact patch managent talk.
Andy
Thanks for the tip on the books, too. I'll have to check 'em out.
07-14-2009, 02:29 AM
#14
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: WA
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with most of the above, but if you were my student I would probably tell you to relax, try not pushing so hard, and just get more seat time. 911s do take more to get used to, and even more so than e46s, the driver makes a big difference on the understeer situation. They turn in very well under trail braking, and respond more lively to throttle inputs in comparison. I would go so far to say that they're harder to drive.
One other point, I really think it's a shame how soft the suspension is on these cars stock...
One other point, I really think it's a shame how soft the suspension is on these cars stock...
Not sure I'm ready for the trail braking just yet, but I can see how that would definitely work on this car.
07-14-2009, 02:43 AM
#15
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: WA
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just as a guess based on my experience with new 911 drivers: I would wager it's your braking technique. Either (1) too much brake too late or (2) an abrupt pedal release. Either situation results in horrible push. Dive bombing a corner will result in no friction available for turning (aka push). And releasing the brake too quickly will transfer weight to the rear resulting in a smaller contact patch for turning (aka push). And usually, dive bombing a corner will result in 1+2 since you have to release the brakes abruptly to make the corner, which equals retarded levels of push.
For most corners in a 911 you should be applying gas at the same time you move the steering wheel - unless you are trail braking of course. Smoothly apply the gas until you know you've make the corner (usually around apex) and then foot to the floor at apex.
To facilitate this, I typically instruct new 911 drivers to brake a tad earlier and roll off the brakes smoothly to allow a smooth transition to power at turn in. Not to drag the brakes, but to release smoothly. This allows the car to remain set during the turn. And then I yell GAS GAS GAS until track out.
To facilitate this, I typically instruct new 911 drivers to brake a tad earlier and roll off the brakes smoothly to allow a smooth transition to power at turn in. Not to drag the brakes, but to release smoothly. This allows the car to remain set during the turn. And then I yell GAS GAS GAS until track out.
What do you mean by "knocked off line"?
Smoothness is the key (in any car really). You have to be smooth or you won't be fast. This applies to brakes, throttle and steering. But in a 911, you HAVE to use the gas pedal to get around the track.
Oh, and don't lift in a corner
-td
Oh, and don't lift in a corner
-td