Ahmet

Some highlights from a very slippery session in the wet with my 911 at Thunderbolt last weekend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7yhiUNTC-Y

himself

Nice vid. Do you normally shuffle steer?

-td

Ahmet

I do, yes. The steering inputs in that video are pretty typical of my driving. Often I was drifting with a narrow angle from the apex on out, unfortunately the video I have doesn't capture the minor/longer corrections, so these short clips are all I posted.

LVDell

Ahmet, there shouldn't have been any reason to be constantly "drifting". Smoother input and a better line (rain line) would have cleared that right up.

ivangene

did the popcorn ever finish.... "wish we had SMELL-O-VISION"

hey, and make sure to remove the armband next time they "let you out"

I agree with Dell, since my first days out were almost drifting the entire track. While fun and all I have found that by changing where to apply the gas and brakes along with a better line its safer and faster.

I am not trying to be mean but mearly offer an opinion on car position to help correct the oversteer. BTW I love my new set up - THANKS!!!

Fissionx

Although I hate to admit it, Ahmet is a pretty quick driver and I feel that usually the degree to which he 'overdrives' the car is acceptable for street tires. With r-comps or slicks the sharper decrease in traction beyond optimal slip angle rewards a driver that stays at or just below the optimal slip angle. Street tires are more forgiving I feel. I say this regarding his driving in the dry; not sure if I've ridden with you in the wet actually...
But anyways yes most of the 'moments' in the video show more than slight steering corrections. The 1:00 mark looks okay. In the end this is just a DE so who really cares. The goal is to have fun and not wreck your car.

LVDell

Why would you hate to admit it?

And by the way, there is no such thing as overdriving based on tires. Overdriving is just that, overdriving. You drive the car the SAME way no matter what tires are on the car. Slip angle changes and thus your limit changes. However, your style never changes.

It's not that street tires are more forgiving, they just have a larger window of breakaway and usually tell you as much.

And yes, you should care in a DE environment. Sure you are there to have fun, but remember, the E in DE is for education. As an instructor, my comments to Ahmet would have been hand position and (as I already pointed out) a better line/speed.

By the way Dan, you have a lot to learn about tires. The reward is NOT for driving just below the slip angle. The reward is for actually being in the slip angle. Below that you are NOT generating max grip. Most amateurs confuse sliding with slip angle. Once you exceed the slip angle you start to lose grip but only progressively. It's talent that allows you to reel it in properly and maximize grip as much as possible. Study some friction circles and you will understand what I am talking about.

Dave!

While it's good to learn how to better your driving skills, I figure most people rarely get to go sideways on the track, so rock on.

ivangene

LOL @ that... like I said... LOOKS FUN!!

and I have spent a lot of time in that (as in Seattle we get some rain) - agreed too we are not pros, but learning, and for learning you have to listen to people like Dell who have raced and are instructors

himself

+1.

===========
Did you have your traction control turned off? Was it slightly wet, or very rainy? It seems like you were driving the dry line, which I sometimes do if it is just drizzling. But once I know the corners are slippy at the apex, I run the wet line until the cup cars clean up a dry line Even on a strange track you can simply run a late (super late) apex to have a more perpendicular line across the slick spots.

And shuffle steering is a big no-no down here. If the car started spinning when you had your hands in the "shuffled" position, how would you know where straight-on was to properly correct? I instruct the full crossover-X rather than a shuffle steer as there are very few (if any) corners that require more than 180 degrees of lock.

-td

LVDell

one word.....skidpad

While it looks fun on track, it's the very thing that will get you (and others) in trouble very quickly.

Ahmet

It was mostly wet, partially drying track, but always w/some precipitation. Subsequently, advanced/instructor run groups were almost empty and I got hours with the track mostly to myself. I did do a few laps connecting compound drifts, which I really enjoyed also. Smaller drift angles as I said earlier, are not easily conveyed by video, I only uploaded the more severe ones/requiring more abrupt correction. The idea is even when the car needed larger steering inputs, it did not detract from the line, nor backing off the throttle much. Anyway, I may upload a few complete laps later.

I'm open to input from any of you that I can meet w/in person, but the video was more for amusement. I'm of the thought that a small slip angle is required to go fast, and if you never have to open the wheel, you're not pushing very hard.

Fissionx

Dell I am not offended in the least and I do not want to offend you either. I really enjoy having discussions/arguments on this topic.

I would say I am fairly competent with driving phsyics; putting it into practice is the real challenge. I am aware of tire slip angle. I was simply saying that the available traction envelope with regards to tire slip angle is much wider on street tires than r-comps, and the traction drop-off is less steep. Because of this going beyond OPTIMAL slip angle on a street tire will provide more traction than r-comps. Because of this, 'overdriving' or going beyond this optimal slip angle on street tires - ie moderate understeer or oversteering - will scrub off less speed than on r-comps. Does that make sense?

LVDell

Ahmet, I'm not quite sure you understand what a slip angle is. Slip angle is not what makes you go fast. The slip angle is the characteristic of the tire under cornering load and is unique based on it's type, compound, etc.. Staying in (and just PAST) that slip angle is optimal to go fast. It's not the size but rather the time you stay within it while cornering. That's what makes you fast.

Further, not sure I follow what you are trying to get at with not having to open the wheel and not pushing hard. If you are at max grip under corning and hit your apex properly you will actually REDUCE the need to open the wheel.

LVDell

Dan, actually the slip angle is SMALLER on street tires. You really need to read up on slip angle to get a better understanding.

And don't worry, I'm not offended Just trying to educate.