How hard would getting a SBC engine into a 966 be? Anyone done it before?
08-27-2008, 07:25 PM
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How hard would getting a SBC engine into a 966 be? Anyone done it before?
Well I have a line on a MINT turbo body, but no drivetrain. Its a steal of a deal. And when I price out new porsche parts to get it running the total is still under what a running car in the same condition would fetch, problem is, that amount is still higher then my budget.
So I was thinking. I can get a LS6 engine (same one as the new vettes, 400hp, 400 ft lbs) for about the cost of the bolts on the Porsche turbo engine.
I was quoted $27,000 for the turbo engine and transaxel.
The LS6 with a supercharger on it would come in at around 12500. This is for a new engine, using almost new parts the cost would be around 8000 and the SBC infinitely cheaper to fix over the porsche.
A supercharged LS6 will put more power down to the wheels then the turbo Porsche engine at the flywheel.
So my only question is.... Will it fit?
I'm not really interested in Porsche elitists saying I am ruining a great car or anything like that, I have gotten enough of that from local sources in trying to answer this question. If you have a big problem with it I will be more then happy to let you cover the difference between the Porsche and LS6 engine costs.
So I was thinking. I can get a LS6 engine (same one as the new vettes, 400hp, 400 ft lbs) for about the cost of the bolts on the Porsche turbo engine.
I was quoted $27,000 for the turbo engine and transaxel.
The LS6 with a supercharger on it would come in at around 12500. This is for a new engine, using almost new parts the cost would be around 8000 and the SBC infinitely cheaper to fix over the porsche.
A supercharged LS6 will put more power down to the wheels then the turbo Porsche engine at the flywheel.
So my only question is.... Will it fit?
I'm not really interested in Porsche elitists saying I am ruining a great car or anything like that, I have gotten enough of that from local sources in trying to answer this question. If you have a big problem with it I will be more then happy to let you cover the difference between the Porsche and LS6 engine costs.
08-27-2008, 08:29 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
Size wise, it will fit, they are surprising compact due to lack of ohc. LS3/LS7 is lighter than TT engine and even the vanilla 3.4/3.6/3.8. You'll need to mount as far forward as possible to avoid cutting the rear cross member to clear belts, but you'll get that done.
Mechanically, transaxle will be the biggest issue, as you'll need a 2WD G50 (G96 just won't work right, unless you have enough time and money for machining a lot of trial and error adapter plates, it's a long story). The big torque G50s are in low supply high demand, the highest torque rated G50s run 600+ ft/lbs in cars like the ultima. The LS6 + SC is overkill though, and the titanium con-rods are reputed to not handle boost, if you SC go to the newer LS3 (which is the same setup as ZR1) or just do the LS7 (427) if N/A. LS3 crate trim is 480hp/450tq before S/C, with S/C est. 650bhp
no one has done this on a watercooled car to my knowledge, and if I had some major free time I would try just out of sheer curiosity, but since you are getting a shell you might be OK.
probably new water pump, existing radiators if they come with the car (if not, do a rear radiator in a wing decklid). You'll need to figure out the reluctor for the starter, you'll manage though. Remember SBC mounts up differently than LSx, don't say SBC when ordering up parts or they won't fit!
The big question is the DME. You need to find a way to get the GM engine management to coexist with the Porsche DME and immobiliser. You will eventually find a way to defeat everything and make this work, but the one word that will get in the way of this is "budget". You will be a pioneer here, and that means spending time with a race shop, esp on the DME/immobiliser etc.
Now, if the car you are getting is truly, truly a shell, meaning no starter, no DME, nothing nothing, then you can try going all GM (starter/immobiliser/ECU). You'll lose the gauge cluster, airbags, PSM, probably ABS, who knows what else, I mean it's a major commitment.
Email me/PM me, I'll refer you to a guy whom you should speak with
Mechanically, transaxle will be the biggest issue, as you'll need a 2WD G50 (G96 just won't work right, unless you have enough time and money for machining a lot of trial and error adapter plates, it's a long story). The big torque G50s are in low supply high demand, the highest torque rated G50s run 600+ ft/lbs in cars like the ultima. The LS6 + SC is overkill though, and the titanium con-rods are reputed to not handle boost, if you SC go to the newer LS3 (which is the same setup as ZR1) or just do the LS7 (427) if N/A. LS3 crate trim is 480hp/450tq before S/C, with S/C est. 650bhp
no one has done this on a watercooled car to my knowledge, and if I had some major free time I would try just out of sheer curiosity, but since you are getting a shell you might be OK.
probably new water pump, existing radiators if they come with the car (if not, do a rear radiator in a wing decklid). You'll need to figure out the reluctor for the starter, you'll manage though. Remember SBC mounts up differently than LSx, don't say SBC when ordering up parts or they won't fit!
The big question is the DME. You need to find a way to get the GM engine management to coexist with the Porsche DME and immobiliser. You will eventually find a way to defeat everything and make this work, but the one word that will get in the way of this is "budget". You will be a pioneer here, and that means spending time with a race shop, esp on the DME/immobiliser etc.
Now, if the car you are getting is truly, truly a shell, meaning no starter, no DME, nothing nothing, then you can try going all GM (starter/immobiliser/ECU). You'll lose the gauge cluster, airbags, PSM, probably ABS, who knows what else, I mean it's a major commitment.
Email me/PM me, I'll refer you to a guy whom you should speak with
08-27-2008, 08:31 PM
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Three Wheelin'
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Guys put small block v8s in 914s, even Miata's, so I'm sure someone could figure out how to do it. I can't think of a way to get the power to the rear wheels if you leave the engine in the back though, but good luck. I would l love to see it or even some pictures if you succeed. How cheap is cheap on the rolling chassis? If you don't mind me asking. I will look for a url for a guy in FL who does v8 conversions. He is probably a good source, I just can't think of the name of his place right now
08-27-2008, 08:59 PM
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Thanks guys 
I think the link you are looking for smshirk is toy-jet.com but thats in an older body.
And yes I know the LSx isnt the same as what most call an SBC (but its still a small block chevy :P and besides I come from Camaro's so I interchange it more then I should, lol).
The LS3 gets up there in price, especially since used will be out of the question.
LS6+SC is less money then the LS7. And seeing as the LS6 is in quite a few vehicles hardly used parts are easy to find to help with the cost. Also weight of the LS6 and LS7 are within a few lbs.
The electrical is something I hadnt even considered. I would like to keep the airbags and stuff like that.
I have ~8500 in my budget after the engine and car purchase price for the little things and the big things like the computers.
The car is whole, but the transaxel and engine are gone. most accessories for the engine are there still too. The guy blew the engine with a bad choice of gear when down shifting, sent it and the transaxel out to be fixed, divorce happened, he couldnt pay the shop, shop sold engine to cover his bill. And the car has sat for 2 years. He now needs QUICK cash to prevent bankruptcy, so the price is low enough that I almost feel guilty. He is a friend of a friend and I am being given till the 2nd to have cash in hand or pass on it. Body has less then 14,000km on it. Lets just say parting out the interior and the wheels would almost get more.
I think the link you are looking for smshirk is toy-jet.com but thats in an older body.
And yes I know the LSx isnt the same as what most call an SBC (but its still a small block chevy :P and besides I come from Camaro's so I interchange it more then I should, lol).
The LS3 gets up there in price, especially since used will be out of the question.
LS6+SC is less money then the LS7. And seeing as the LS6 is in quite a few vehicles hardly used parts are easy to find to help with the cost. Also weight of the LS6 and LS7 are within a few lbs.
The electrical is something I hadnt even considered. I would like to keep the airbags and stuff like that.
I have ~8500 in my budget after the engine and car purchase price for the little things and the big things like the computers.
The car is whole, but the transaxel and engine are gone. most accessories for the engine are there still too. The guy blew the engine with a bad choice of gear when down shifting, sent it and the transaxel out to be fixed, divorce happened, he couldnt pay the shop, shop sold engine to cover his bill. And the car has sat for 2 years. He now needs QUICK cash to prevent bankruptcy, so the price is low enough that I almost feel guilty. He is a friend of a friend and I am being given till the 2nd to have cash in hand or pass on it. Body has less then 14,000km on it. Lets just say parting out the interior and the wheels would almost get more.
08-27-2008, 09:34 PM
#5
Race Car
Converting the GM ECU to the Porsche can be done at Fuel Injection Specialties here in San Antonio, TX for about $850. My Dad has had 2 done there with total success.
They lay all the harnesses on a pin board and remove whatever components that will not be used in the Porsche.
Then, they defeat parts of the ECU to avoid all the trouble codes.
Like Hans said, the interface between the dash and other Porsche components/electronics will be huge hurdles that I believe, no one has overcome yet.
So, in a nutshell, the machining game would be tough but doable, the electronics side would be a huge obstacle.
They lay all the harnesses on a pin board and remove whatever components that will not be used in the Porsche.
Then, they defeat parts of the ECU to avoid all the trouble codes.
Like Hans said, the interface between the dash and other Porsche components/electronics will be huge hurdles that I believe, no one has overcome yet.
So, in a nutshell, the machining game would be tough but doable, the electronics side would be a huge obstacle.
08-27-2008, 10:51 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
What you may consider doing, keeping in mind how low TT prices are getting, is buying the TT shell and literally just parting the whole thing out to raise cash, and then go out and buy a TT. With patience I think you'll do very well on that trade. Overall you'll be happier, it's finance-able if budget is a concern, and warrant-able if mechanicals are a concern. Since you don't strike me as the kind of guy who's afraid to get a little dirty, you could also buy a C2 and supercharge (FAST).
Or, if you don't like the idea of parting out, get someone to quote you for the TT motor and a 2WD trans (assuming you have no driveline in the roller), maybe it'll be cheaper enough to make the exercise and risk seem less worthwhile. Talk to the renntech folks or our TT board about how ABS/PSM etc are affected by no front diff though.
I'm just pulling for you to do the heavy lifting on the LSx since it's such a brain teaser! Typically the cost of LS conversion in an oil cooled car is ~15K. Figure you'll spend another few grand assuming you can spin the wrenches.
Remember, in 2500lbs 930s the 500-600bhp is incomprehensible, and there's no other solution to hit those power levels in those cars short of a sprint motor or a TON of boost, and the replacement Porsche motor is practically even money or more. In a TT, you can hit those output numbers pretty handily with the motor it's got.
Or, if you don't like the idea of parting out, get someone to quote you for the TT motor and a 2WD trans (assuming you have no driveline in the roller), maybe it'll be cheaper enough to make the exercise and risk seem less worthwhile. Talk to the renntech folks or our TT board about how ABS/PSM etc are affected by no front diff though.
I'm just pulling for you to do the heavy lifting on the LSx since it's such a brain teaser! Typically the cost of LS conversion in an oil cooled car is ~15K. Figure you'll spend another few grand assuming you can spin the wrenches.
Remember, in 2500lbs 930s the 500-600bhp is incomprehensible, and there's no other solution to hit those power levels in those cars short of a sprint motor or a TON of boost, and the replacement Porsche motor is practically even money or more. In a TT, you can hit those output numbers pretty handily with the motor it's got.
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08-27-2008, 11:49 PM
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What you may consider doing, keeping in mind how low TT prices are getting, is buying the TT shell and literally just parting the whole thing out to raise cash, and then go out and buy a TT. With patience I think you'll do very well on that trade. Overall you'll be happier, it's finance-able if budget is a concern, and warrant-able if mechanicals are a concern. Since you don't strike me as the kind of guy who's afraid to get a little dirty, you could also buy a C2 and supercharge (FAST).
I'm just pulling for you to do the heavy lifting on the LSx since it's such a brain teaser! Typically the cost of LS conversion in an oil cooled car is ~15K. Figure you'll spend another few grand assuming you can spin the wrenches.
I'm just pulling for you to do the heavy lifting on the LSx since it's such a brain teaser! Typically the cost of LS conversion in an oil cooled car is ~15K. Figure you'll spend another few grand assuming you can spin the wrenches.
But I agree, putting an LSx into the 911 would be bad ***, and very quick.
I have seen 966 C4's with blown engines now and then for a good deal. Throwing a reman engine in there or doing it myself and then putting a SC on it (can I SC it?) would give pretty good results too.
I dont mind getting dirty.
If I could do everything for 25k over the cost of the shell I think I will go that way. At this point I'll be buying the shell for sure and then work out the kinks.
Just the day dreams of a 500+ hp LSx in a turbo 966 body has me drooling.
How am I? I am keeping the perfect body design and lines of the Porsche and adding the perfect design of the LSx Engine.
But for real, if your willing to front the costs I have NO problem at all putting the TT engine in.
08-28-2008, 12:53 AM
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LS6 engine belongs in a GM body car, not for an efficient Germany machine. Just don't go together.
Push rod isn't exactly the prefect design, too much energy lost. If you want perfect design look into a Ferrari small V8, the flat crank design is more enjoyable than the good old faithful flat 6. Of course that comes with a hefty price tag.
I hang out with American V8s (A small car meet in Chino every Sunday from 7-9am), hang out and see plenty of awesome pushrods everyweekend, regardless the Porsche body shape deserves something better then the push rod.
Push rod isn't exactly the prefect design, too much energy lost. If you want perfect design look into a Ferrari small V8, the flat crank design is more enjoyable than the good old faithful flat 6. Of course that comes with a hefty price tag.
I hang out with American V8s (A small car meet in Chino every Sunday from 7-9am), hang out and see plenty of awesome pushrods everyweekend, regardless the Porsche body shape deserves something better then the push rod.
08-28-2008, 02:16 AM
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LS6 engine belongs in a GM body car, not for an efficient Germany machine. Just don't go together.
Push rod isn't exactly the prefect design, too much energy lost. If you want perfect design look into a Ferrari small V8, the flat crank design is more enjoyable than the good old faithful flat 6. Of course that comes with a hefty price tag.
I hang out with American V8s (A small car meet in Chino every Sunday from 7-9am), hang out and see plenty of awesome pushrods everyweekend, regardless the Porsche body shape deserves something better then the push rod.
Push rod isn't exactly the prefect design, too much energy lost. If you want perfect design look into a Ferrari small V8, the flat crank design is more enjoyable than the good old faithful flat 6. Of course that comes with a hefty price tag.
I hang out with American V8s (A small car meet in Chino every Sunday from 7-9am), hang out and see plenty of awesome pushrods everyweekend, regardless the Porsche body shape deserves something better then the push rod.
Despite perfect design or not you can not argue the fact that the good old American V8 is a lot more reliable and will take a lot more abuse then the Porsche motor. And well lets not forget price since it is a factor here.
But as I said, I am more then willing to let you pony up the extra bones to put the proper engine in her.
where can I get a crate motor for a good price?
08-28-2008, 09:08 AM
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08-28-2008, 10:32 AM
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What are you talking about? The whole business of Porsche is based on their motors being reliable and able to take a beating. Hint.... 24 hours of LeMans?