pat056

Not wanting to hijack Ben's thread on engine failure and new/reman engines. All the discussion about our engine's failure rates and numbers of 0.5% being used. I just wonder what an engine manufacturer would consider an allowable failure rate would be. I know most car company's are into "6 Sigma" where you're targeting 1 failure per 1,000,000, or something like that.
I'm just curious, anyone know? 0.5% sounds like a disaster to me, if that number's correct.
is there a point where the gov. gets involved? I know safety they do, but what about the "people are getting ripped off" factor?
Or is it just a supply/demand and "buyer beware" issue?
Not talking specifically about Porsche or 996, just the auto industry in general.

BruceP

Google the Toyota/Lexus oil-gelling case. Plenty to read, and should give you some sense of how the market treats this stuff. Especially interesting because Toyota, to the bitter end, blamed consumers for the problem. i have personally watched a Sienna owner get the news that he needed a new motor. My wife is practically giving her RAV4 away because of this (it was outside the settlement period and not one of the officially acknowledged 'affected vehicles'), rather than lie to a buyer.

At the risk of repeating myself, you have to ask yourself why nobody has certified a class against Porsche for this. Lord knows, there are enough lawyers driving these things. If there were thousands of angry people who were certain they had been screwed by an inferior product, someone would have done it. They haven't. Why?

deckman

Or look at '02-'04 Honda Odyssey transmission failures. Not as costly as and engine, but still some $$ to deal with.

AndyK

This "failure rate" is the key to the whole question! You see 10-15 people posting that they have in fact had to replace their engines due to failure. That seems like a very large number. But that is just out of those on Rennlist. Are there 100,000 others out there? Or are there hundreds out of a million cars sold, etc?

I think the class action suit hasn't happened because although failures do occur, they don't occur enough to warrant a class action suit. Makes sense, right?

jury_ca

They won't warrant a class action suit because Porsche has no obligation to stand behind their product beyond the implied warranty of the vehicle.

There are only 2 ways for Porsche to pay attention to this issue:

1) If failures exceed a particular statistical threshold they have set.
2) If failures cost Porsche a lot of money (also thru loss of reputation)

With all the updates done to the RMS and IMS, I think they have paid a lot of attention to reduce the severity of these issues. If you'd like to measure the success of their corrective action, you'd compare the last generation M96 motors in the '04-'05 cars to earlier generation motors. Only time will tell, but I haven't heard of too many failures in the newer motors. For owners of the older motors, Porsche is not going to recall these engines to fix the issue because it is not safety-related, and it is much less costly to deal with it on a case by case basis.

rmillnj

Sitting here with a '99 C2 with 97,000 miles and the original engine, I look at this discussion with a bit of amusement and concern. All of these posts have gotten me scared almost to the point of selling, but then I compare this situation to other cars I have owned with high mileage.

I recently sold a Jeep Grand Cherokee with 146,000 miles. Why? Because I knew it needed a new a/c unit (probably about $600) and I was worried the transmission was going to go since it was starting to slap a bit. I knew that Jeep transmissions are often replaced - had to replace one on a previous Jeep. And at around $3000, that combined with the A/C and a couple of other things added up to what was roughly what the car was worth on a trade. And even if I fixed all of those things, I would still have a beat 146,000 mile Jeep that I really would not trust. Did I mention that the 2000 Jeep brakes were not enough for the weight of the car. Ask any brake shop how many brake jobs they do on this particular model.

With the Porsche though, at 97,000 miles it looks and feels new. And it is still worth under the most conservative estimates at least $20,000 cash - more likely $23000 up to $25,000. So even if the motor goes, it is still only half the current value to make the car whole again. To me that is not a bad economic equation and the odds are this motor will not fail. Of course that probably just jinxed me.

Thinking that Porsche is going to help me at this point is, well, pointless. Would Jeep have paid to replace my transmission. They certainly did not on the other Jeep when its transmission went at around 98,000 miles.

Let face it, out of warranty whether it is time or mileage, truly means out of warranty. Just because you choose not to drive the car, does not get you off the hook. When the time is up, it is up.

Of course if Porsche offered a lifetime powertrain warranty like Jeep is now, you could talk me into springing for a brand new Porsche maybe. That would be a really good warranty to have.

BruceP

You're assuming that Porsche is not paying attention to this issue. Indeed, they are. They're doing the best they can to overcome the basic design goofs in the motor, and they're selling replacement engines at what is surely a subsidized price. I assure you that, to them, this is paying attention. I'd further suggest that there is probably nothing else they can practically do unless you think they're going to write everybody a cheque for diminished value or some such. The M96 is what it is. Until there's a new engine design that conveniently fits into the 996 engine bay, any talk of restitution is academic at best.

BruceP

Brother, if you put 97,000 miles on the car with no major problems, you will be doing very well on a cost-per-mile basis even if you have to replace the engine. Forget that it's an engine, and just think of it as a maintenance expense... believe me, there are vehicles that will extract much more money from you than this, just in smaller, more frequent amounts. You won!

Barn996

I agree with you rmillnj that if you are(I am) out of warranty Porsche won't do anything regarding engine replacement.

Chads996

rmillnj

I am not complaining. I did manage to get a new transmission courtesy of my service manager and the CPO warranty at 92,000 miles along with a bunch of other stuff.

But even despite that I would say my car was trouble free although it was towed in twice. Once for the coolant tank leaking and the second time after the transmission replacement, the shop did not properly hook up a crankshaft speed sensor correctly which killed the engine. But other than that, I was able to put some serious miles on it.

The thing is it has never nickeled and dimed with the little stuff lke you mention. Take it in for the normal service and a Porsche will generally treat you good.

pat056

I'm at 81,000 miles and changed the oil yesterday. She's as dry as a bone underneath. If it blew tomorrow, and assuming I could put a new motor in for $16,000, that would put me at the rebuilding price of my 964 motor (quoted 4 years ago).
Don't know if that means anything, but I guess to me puts the price of ownership of the 2 together.

BruceP

A good reminder for the few folks who seem to have forgotten that they bought a Porsche. Not saying it's right, not saying it's wrong. Just saying it's still a Porsche.

Van

Shoot! Even just rebuilding a 914 engine isn't cheap!

Tippy

Couldn't of said it any better.......spot on.............