Is the 911 underpowered?
03-31-2008, 03:12 PM
#46
Banned
My point is the competition is "thriving" as well and provides some very compelling substitutes to put holes in the infamous Porsche marketing slogan we all love to quote: "There is no subsitute."
That the 911 "efficiency" isn't any more efficient than what the competitors are offering and delivering in real world results.
Laptimes are a good measure of things, but not in absolutes. Especially when we got a bunch of track nerds who think their hobby makes them pros.
LOL no offense
That the 911 "efficiency" isn't any more efficient than what the competitors are offering and delivering in real world results.
Laptimes are a good measure of things, but not in absolutes. Especially when we got a bunch of track nerds who think their hobby makes them pros.
LOL no offense
03-31-2008, 03:37 PM
#47
Intermediate
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The 911 is part engineering, part legend and part massive mark-up. For me it (a used 996) has the right mix of usable power, versatility, chassis feedback, style and engine note.
Comparing a 997 C4S, a R8 and the new GTR is a different story (I left the C6 out because it has leaf-springs for rear suspension.)
Comparing a 997 C4S, a R8 and the new GTR is a different story (I left the C6 out because it has leaf-springs for rear suspension.)
03-31-2008, 03:47 PM
#48
Banned
agreed. without the heritage, it'd really be... an ugly duckling with a dated engine layout. but it does and will always have it so long as they continue to be made. i bought into it myself, right? 
Out of the 3 you mention, I'd pick the 997C4S. I love that car with the aerokit. best looking 997 version sans GT2 where the GT2 has always been the best looking and performing out of its generation of cars (993,996,997) and fitfully so. GT3 997 is special, but strictly looks, the c4s with its clean wide body with the aerokit is simply mesmerizing. saw one rolling down hollywood blvd with pse blastin... loved it even on stock wheels!
the r8 and GTR are awesome machines in their own right, but it just simply doesn't have 40 yrs .
Out of the 3 you mention, I'd pick the 997C4S. I love that car with the aerokit. best looking 997 version sans GT2 where the GT2 has always been the best looking and performing out of its generation of cars (993,996,997) and fitfully so. GT3 997 is special, but strictly looks, the c4s with its clean wide body with the aerokit is simply mesmerizing. saw one rolling down hollywood blvd with pse blastin... loved it even on stock wheels!
the r8 and GTR are awesome machines in their own right, but it just simply doesn't have 40 yrs .
03-31-2008, 03:47 PM
#49
Instructor
Thread Starter
It's natural for most folks to be somewhat defensive on this subject. Afterall, we currently have 996s/997s ... but think about this thread in terms of the next Porsche you might buy. How would you like it to be improved over the 996/997 .... more power, less weight, more creature comforts ??? Fact is, today with a new price of $80K there are other options to the 911.
Ben - You're clearly not in the defensive camp, but here an interesting analogy I used on this thread in the 997 forum :
To use a Ferrari analogy again, if the 348 to 355 was a small incremental jump I don't think Ferrari would be doing so well today. Looking at their competition, Ferrari realized they needed to step up their game and really made significant changes after the 348. Porsche is in a different market segment, but I think the analogy with competition holds true.
There were a lot of responses along the lines of : "if you go to the track, then ..." or "if you want a stoplight racer, then get something else". Below is a response I posted to some of those messages.
I also have a Turbo, so some of this is a moot point for me, but I think Porsche's entry car should be something like the current 997 GT3, and not the entry level 325 hp carrera.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
response message posted in 997 forum
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In the early 90s, I thought the 964 was worth of being called a "benchmark car."
Same goes for the 993 and 996 at their respective times. 993 was around in the time of the E36 M3 (US form 240 hp) and 996 was around at the time of the E46 M3. I honestly felt that the 996 was a better car, which is why I bought one. It was slightly less powerful, but made up for it in different ways. Corvette at that time I think was 350hp, but the performance differential wasn't huge and I still felt the 996 was a better car.
However, here's where things started to change - in my opinion the 996 to 997 jump was not as big as it could have been.
Back in 1990 a car like a corvette was much different from a Porsche. Today, they are still different cars but the delta is not as huge. The 2008 corvette has a relatively nice interior, is quick, fun to drive and though it's not my cup of tea, I certainly wouldn't be ashamed to be driving one. Don't know how they are on a track, but I suspect with a decent suspension they do okay.
One more point I'd like to add, I noticed a few responses that said something to the effect of "if you want to drag race, get a corvette." I DON'T drag race, but probably like most other folks here I enjoy the rush of getting on an on-ramp or the occaisonal quick burst of speed when passing a slower car. Not saying the 911 is inadequate in this respect, but a little more hp/tq wouldn't hurt.
... And I don't think every discussion should resort to "try driving one on a track" or "try running at WOT on a track." Most owners don't track their cars, but most do get on and off an on-ramp every day.
In my experience with Product Development and Marketing, good companies in general try to cater to their customers needs. If the typical 911 purchaser is satisfied with the cars power as is (which is totally fine), you will only see small incremental increases in hp/tq.
Many people here will be repeat 911 customers. If the rest of the 911 competition takes a 20% jump in the next model generation and Porshe makes the 998, 5% better would you be happy?
To use a Ferrari analogy again, if the 348 to 355 was a small incremental jump I don't think Ferrari would be doing so well today. Looking at their competition, Ferrari realized they needed to step up their game and really made significant changes after the 348. Porsche is in a different market segment, but I think the analogy with competition holds true.
Ben - You're clearly not in the defensive camp, but here an interesting analogy I used on this thread in the 997 forum :
To use a Ferrari analogy again, if the 348 to 355 was a small incremental jump I don't think Ferrari would be doing so well today. Looking at their competition, Ferrari realized they needed to step up their game and really made significant changes after the 348. Porsche is in a different market segment, but I think the analogy with competition holds true.
There were a lot of responses along the lines of : "if you go to the track, then ..." or "if you want a stoplight racer, then get something else". Below is a response I posted to some of those messages.
I also have a Turbo, so some of this is a moot point for me, but I think Porsche's entry car should be something like the current 997 GT3, and not the entry level 325 hp carrera.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
response message posted in 997 forum
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In the early 90s, I thought the 964 was worth of being called a "benchmark car."
Same goes for the 993 and 996 at their respective times. 993 was around in the time of the E36 M3 (US form 240 hp) and 996 was around at the time of the E46 M3. I honestly felt that the 996 was a better car, which is why I bought one. It was slightly less powerful, but made up for it in different ways. Corvette at that time I think was 350hp, but the performance differential wasn't huge and I still felt the 996 was a better car.
However, here's where things started to change - in my opinion the 996 to 997 jump was not as big as it could have been.
Back in 1990 a car like a corvette was much different from a Porsche. Today, they are still different cars but the delta is not as huge. The 2008 corvette has a relatively nice interior, is quick, fun to drive and though it's not my cup of tea, I certainly wouldn't be ashamed to be driving one. Don't know how they are on a track, but I suspect with a decent suspension they do okay.
One more point I'd like to add, I noticed a few responses that said something to the effect of "if you want to drag race, get a corvette." I DON'T drag race, but probably like most other folks here I enjoy the rush of getting on an on-ramp or the occaisonal quick burst of speed when passing a slower car. Not saying the 911 is inadequate in this respect, but a little more hp/tq wouldn't hurt.
... And I don't think every discussion should resort to "try driving one on a track" or "try running at WOT on a track." Most owners don't track their cars, but most do get on and off an on-ramp every day.
In my experience with Product Development and Marketing, good companies in general try to cater to their customers needs. If the typical 911 purchaser is satisfied with the cars power as is (which is totally fine), you will only see small incremental increases in hp/tq.
Many people here will be repeat 911 customers. If the rest of the 911 competition takes a 20% jump in the next model generation and Porshe makes the 998, 5% better would you be happy?
To use a Ferrari analogy again, if the 348 to 355 was a small incremental jump I don't think Ferrari would be doing so well today. Looking at their competition, Ferrari realized they needed to step up their game and really made significant changes after the 348. Porsche is in a different market segment, but I think the analogy with competition holds true.
03-31-2008, 03:49 PM
#50
Drifting
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I believe the term is "track ******".
But anyway, after 4 pages what's the verdict? The guy should have just put up a poll..
My Pcar with bolt ons easily kepted up with a Single Turbo G35 Coupe(370whp uncorrected and dyno'd only 1hr before the run) on a 1/2 mile straight. Enough power for me.
But anyway, after 4 pages what's the verdict? The guy should have just put up a poll..
My Pcar with bolt ons easily kepted up with a Single Turbo G35 Coupe(370whp uncorrected and dyno'd only 1hr before the run) on a 1/2 mile straight. Enough power for me.
My point is the competition is "thriving" as well and provides some very compelling substitutes to put holes in the infamous Porsche marketing slogan we all love to quote: "There is no subsitute."
That the 911 "efficiency" isn't any more efficient than what the competitors are offering and delivering in real world results.
Laptimes are a good measure of things, but not in absolutes. Especially when we got a bunch of track nerds who think their hobby makes them pros.
LOL no offense
That the 911 "efficiency" isn't any more efficient than what the competitors are offering and delivering in real world results.
Laptimes are a good measure of things, but not in absolutes. Especially when we got a bunch of track nerds who think their hobby makes them pros.
LOL no offense
03-31-2008, 03:56 PM
#51
Instructor
Thread Starter
Didn't think about a poll ... not a bad idea in retrospect!
... but you've got to admit, it's interesting reading some of the responses ...
... but you've got to admit, it's interesting reading some of the responses ...
I believe the term is "track ******".
But anyway, after 4 pages what's the verdict? The guy should have just put up a poll..
My Pcar with bolt ons easily kepted up with a Single Turbo G35 Coupe(370whp uncorrected and dyno'd only 1hr before the run) on a 1/2 mile straight. Enough power for me.
But anyway, after 4 pages what's the verdict? The guy should have just put up a poll..
My Pcar with bolt ons easily kepted up with a Single Turbo G35 Coupe(370whp uncorrected and dyno'd only 1hr before the run) on a 1/2 mile straight. Enough power for me.
03-31-2008, 04:01 PM
#52
Banned
It's natural for most folks to be somewhat defensive on this subject. Afterall, we currently have 996s/997s ... but think about this thread in terms of the next Porsche you might buy. How would you like it to be improved over the 996/997 .... more power, less weight, more creature comforts ??? Fact is, today with a new price of $80K there are other options to the 911.
Ben - You're clearly not in the defensive camp, but here an interesting analogy I used on this thread in the 997 forum :
To use a Ferrari analogy again, if the 348 to 355 was a small incremental jump I don't think Ferrari would be doing so well today. Looking at their competition, Ferrari realized they needed to step up their game and really made significant changes after the 348. Porsche is in a different market segment, but I think the analogy with competition holds true.
There were a lot of responses along the lines of : "if you go to the track, then ..." or "if you want a stoplight racer, then get something else". Below is a response I posted to some of those messages.
I also have a Turbo, so some of this is a moot point for me, but I think Porsche's entry car should be something like the current 997 GT3, and not the entry level 325 hp carrera.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
response message posted in 997 forum
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I started getting interested cars in the early 90s. At that time I thought the 964 was worth of being called a "benchmark car."
Same goes for the 993 and 996 at their respective times. 993 was around in the time of the E36 M3 (US form 240 hp) and 996 was around at the time of the E46 M3. I honestly felt that the 996 was a better car, which is why I bought one. It was slightly less powerful, but made up for it in different ways. Corvette at that time I think was 350hp, but the performance differential wasn't huge and I still felt the 996 was a better car.
However, here's where things started to change - in my opinion the 996 to 997 jump was not as big as it could have been.
Back in 1990 a car like a corvette was much different from a Porsche. Today, they are still different cars but the delta is not as huge. The 2008 corvette has a relatively nice interior, is quick, fun to drive and though it's not my cup of tea, I certainly wouldn't be ashamed to be driving one. Don't know how they are on a track, but I suspect with a decent suspension they do okay.
One more point I'd like to add, I noticed a few responses that said something to the effect of "if you want to drag race, get a corvette." I DON'T drag race, but probably like most other folks here I enjoy the rush of getting on an on-ramp or the occaisonal quick burst of speed when passing a slower car. Not saying the 911 is inadequate in this respect, but a little more hp/tq wouldn't hurt.
... And I don't think every discussion should resort to "try driving one on a track" or "try running at WOT on a track." Most owners don't track their cars, but most do get on and off an on-ramp every day.
In my experience with Product Development and Marketing, good companies in general try to cater to their customers needs. If the typical 911 purchaser is satisfied with the cars power as is (which is totally fine), you will only see small incremental increases in hp/tq.
Many people here will be repeat 911 customers. If the rest of the 911 competition takes a 20% jump in the next model generation and Porshe makes the 998, 5% better would you be happy?
To use a Ferrari analogy again, if the 348 to 355 was a small incremental jump I don't think Ferrari would be doing so well today. Looking at their competition, Ferrari realized they needed to step up their game and really made significant changes after the 348. Porsche is in a different market segment, but I think the analogy with competition holds true.
Ben - You're clearly not in the defensive camp, but here an interesting analogy I used on this thread in the 997 forum :
To use a Ferrari analogy again, if the 348 to 355 was a small incremental jump I don't think Ferrari would be doing so well today. Looking at their competition, Ferrari realized they needed to step up their game and really made significant changes after the 348. Porsche is in a different market segment, but I think the analogy with competition holds true.
There were a lot of responses along the lines of : "if you go to the track, then ..." or "if you want a stoplight racer, then get something else". Below is a response I posted to some of those messages.
I also have a Turbo, so some of this is a moot point for me, but I think Porsche's entry car should be something like the current 997 GT3, and not the entry level 325 hp carrera.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
response message posted in 997 forum
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I started getting interested cars in the early 90s. At that time I thought the 964 was worth of being called a "benchmark car."
Same goes for the 993 and 996 at their respective times. 993 was around in the time of the E36 M3 (US form 240 hp) and 996 was around at the time of the E46 M3. I honestly felt that the 996 was a better car, which is why I bought one. It was slightly less powerful, but made up for it in different ways. Corvette at that time I think was 350hp, but the performance differential wasn't huge and I still felt the 996 was a better car.
However, here's where things started to change - in my opinion the 996 to 997 jump was not as big as it could have been.
Back in 1990 a car like a corvette was much different from a Porsche. Today, they are still different cars but the delta is not as huge. The 2008 corvette has a relatively nice interior, is quick, fun to drive and though it's not my cup of tea, I certainly wouldn't be ashamed to be driving one. Don't know how they are on a track, but I suspect with a decent suspension they do okay.
One more point I'd like to add, I noticed a few responses that said something to the effect of "if you want to drag race, get a corvette." I DON'T drag race, but probably like most other folks here I enjoy the rush of getting on an on-ramp or the occaisonal quick burst of speed when passing a slower car. Not saying the 911 is inadequate in this respect, but a little more hp/tq wouldn't hurt.
... And I don't think every discussion should resort to "try driving one on a track" or "try running at WOT on a track." Most owners don't track their cars, but most do get on and off an on-ramp every day.
In my experience with Product Development and Marketing, good companies in general try to cater to their customers needs. If the typical 911 purchaser is satisfied with the cars power as is (which is totally fine), you will only see small incremental increases in hp/tq.
Many people here will be repeat 911 customers. If the rest of the 911 competition takes a 20% jump in the next model generation and Porshe makes the 998, 5% better would you be happy?
To use a Ferrari analogy again, if the 348 to 355 was a small incremental jump I don't think Ferrari would be doing so well today. Looking at their competition, Ferrari realized they needed to step up their game and really made significant changes after the 348. Porsche is in a different market segment, but I think the analogy with competition holds true.
Truly greater efficiencies like direct fuel injection. A more daring change in the headlights, rear lights than simply harking back to the 993 days with plain round headlights in an era where the LED lighting package will most definitely provide a much bigger design headroom than ever before.
I could've been a buyer of the 997S, but I chose to stick with the 996 because the overlap was big enough that I would prefer a modified to my tastes 996 over a stockish 997S since the enhanced driving experience of the newer car didn't usurp the satisfaction I'd get from a car that today even after a year love to look at and admire.
No regrets. Because of what the competitors have put out, I may or may not be a repeat 911 buyer. But the 911 has the homecourt advantage.
03-31-2008, 04:31 PM
#53
Three Wheelin'
Back on discussion, as for power, Porsche makes a more powerful 997...it's called the turbo. If you are going to compare apples to apples, than the bone stock 996 and 997 should really be compared to a 3 series and not the M3. The Porsche 'M3' is the GT3 and I'll take the latter any day of the week over the bimmer.
As for Vette, they just don't seem to last a full season of racing. So why would one want to chance day in and day out driving in one of them?
Lastly, I drove my pal's 997 S over the weekend. It's a nice feel. It has more power than my car (though I'm a bit modded so not 'that' much) and feels newer, but agreed: it's hard to rationalize 100K on a new 997S cab when you can have purchase a 996 C4S cab for almost half the cost.
As for a new M3 cab which will sticker near 80 when it's out, I just don't see myself ever going there over a 997S cab all things equal.
Listen, if you really want power, then we're all driving the wrong car. The Corvette Z06 will annihilate almost anything straightline for the money. I just don't love the feel day to day.
03-31-2008, 04:47 PM
#55
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
I think we can agree that bone stock, a current 911 is faster around the track than a current BMW M3. The bimmer is heavier and the brakes are a weak spot. with a 911 you pay for and get balanced performance, acceleration, cornering, braking and let's not forget safety. An Elise is wonderful but I would not want to have an accident in one.
03-31-2008, 05:10 PM
#57
Ironman 140.6
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Ray, what are you smoking, dude?
Line-up a bone stock E46 M3 next to a bone stock 3.6 996 Carrera... neck and neck, will be largely dependent on driver skills.
You guys get on this tip about the 911 being light... it's NOT light. A Lotus Elise is light. A water-cooled 911 is NOT light enough to call it out as evidence that it's more efficient than any other comparable car.
Line-up a bone stock E46 M3 next to a bone stock 3.6 996 Carrera... neck and neck, will be largely dependent on driver skills.
You guys get on this tip about the 911 being light... it's NOT light. A Lotus Elise is light. A water-cooled 911 is NOT light enough to call it out as evidence that it's more efficient than any other comparable car.
Further more the 996 absolutely IS a light car by todays standards. A reasonably equiped C2 can be found in the 3,100 - 3,200 pound range which is very light (unfortunately) by today's standards. The car is hundreds of pounds lighter than the BMW 1 Series, 3 Series, Nissan 350, Infiniti G35/37, Aston Vantage, the new porky Skyline, Mustang GT, or the soon to be introduced Camaro and Charger.
Unfortunately, I can't even think of very many sub 3,000 pound "sports cars" left any more.
You've got the Elise/Exige, Boxster/Cayman, S2000, Miata and that's about it.
Sad but true, the 996 is a light car.
03-31-2008, 05:15 PM
#58
Team Owner
03-31-2008, 05:31 PM
#60
Banned
Ok Ben, I'm not going to get in another M3 argument here (from what I've seen the M3 has similar perf to the 3.4 996). However, even if you say the 996 has the same performance as the cars I listed, it does it with 13 to 60 less hp!! Not bad in my book.
Further more the 996 absolutely IS a light car by todays standards. A reasonably equiped C2 can be found in the 3,100 - 3,200 pound range which is very light (unfortunately) by today's standards. The car is hundreds of pounds lighter than the BMW 1 Series, 3 Series, Nissan 350, Infiniti G35/37, Aston Vantage, the new porky Skyline, Mustang GT, or the soon to be introduced Camaro and Charger.
Unfortunately, I can't even think of very many sub 3,000 pound "sports cars" left any more.
You've got the Elise/Exige, Boxster/Cayman, S2000, Miata and that's about it.
Sad but true, the 996 is a light car.
Further more the 996 absolutely IS a light car by todays standards. A reasonably equiped C2 can be found in the 3,100 - 3,200 pound range which is very light (unfortunately) by today's standards. The car is hundreds of pounds lighter than the BMW 1 Series, 3 Series, Nissan 350, Infiniti G35/37, Aston Vantage, the new porky Skyline, Mustang GT, or the soon to be introduced Camaro and Charger.
Unfortunately, I can't even think of very many sub 3,000 pound "sports cars" left any more.
You've got the Elise/Exige, Boxster/Cayman, S2000, Miata and that's about it.
Sad but true, the 996 is a light car.
So I'm not here thinking oh gosh the 911 is so sweet and more efficient cuz it's lightweight. It ain't.