J-RAD

How so?

redridge

J-Rad, 996TT are dry sump, but Porsche dont want them tracked because of lacking a scavenge pump... youre 99 has the same pump as the 02...
Heres something from the PCA website..

http://www.pca.org/tech/tech_qa_question.asp?id={6AAD8903-6A72-40F4-9A1F-9D021DD24DB2}
http://www.pca.org/tech/tech_qa_question.asp?id={DB922557-0C0E-4365-8281-BB1F1E524ECC}

I think you just had a case of bad luck...
I track my 00 and its supercharged... if the engine blows, my mechanic will blame it on the supercharger even though there hasnt been a case of engine detonation (that know of) yet...
My mechanic are hard core air cooled purist and rags on the watercooled engines... even though it has been totally reliable, they still arent conviced that Porsche has turned for the better... Funny, Porsche thinks there heading in the right direction.

BruceP

It's been awhile since I hung around race tracks, but it seems to me that tracking an eight year old used car, perhaps with an uncertain history, comes with risks no matter who made it. In any case, as I recall, if you're going to track your car, you'd better be ready to spend money on it. Things break.

AFAIK, these cars were built to race out of the box.

Ray S

I just got back from a DE and Club Race weekend at Road America. The DE portion of this event contained the following cars;

1 Cayman S
5 986's
1 987
3 997's
and 7 996's (one supercharged)

All of these cars use variations of the same basic motor. That's a total of 17 cars with the M96 motor (no dry sump). I did not see or hear of a single engine failure on any of these cars this weekend. The schedule called for 3 days of DE with three to four 30 minute sessions per day. These cars were only in the DE group, there were many more M96 cars in the Club Racing group and many of those cars did an Enduro.

If you were going to have an oil starvation problem, the carousel at RA (Very long constant radius corner) would be a perfect place to see this happen. However, I didn't hear of a single problem.

Bottom line, your mechanics are idiots. There is no reason that you cannot operate your 996 at the track successfully.

I am sorry about your car, but it does not sound like your failure had anything to do with the sump.

MagnusB

Your question was if the 996 was a bad track car due to the lack of dry sump.
The answer, if you read the comments, is, no it's not.

wdonovan

To get off the main subject slightly..... In lieu of a dry sump, has anyone installed an Accusump or similar? Basically a bladder-type accumulator that hold and releases some oil when the pump gulps air. Just good for a short time but generally, that's all you should need from a lateral G induced deficiency.

J-RAD

Just to be clear, it's not my car that had the issue. It was waydeki's.

Great links by the way. That is the kind of info I'm interested in tracking down.

This particular incident actually occured at the RA event last weekend.

I also wouldn't go so far as to say the mechanics are idiots. At least one of the shops he spoke to is pretty well respected at a national level, especially when it comes to track cars.

Personally, my thought is that this may indeed just be an issue of bad luck but I have nothing concrete to base that on. I'm actually hoping for an answer that's more concrete (one way or the other) than "I think...". Maybe there isn't one (although redridge's links are potentially a step in the right direction).

Yet, at the same time, people with significantly more knowledge of the car are potentially saying otherwise - that the 996 may be a problem. Again, these statements came from mulitple sources, not just one. However, when you see so many of these cars partipating in DE's such statements seem to go against conventional wisdom (and I've been doing DE's for several years). It just doesn't seem to me that the answer is you must have a Cup car to participate in DE's or never use stickier tires - that seems almost absurd (although that is basically what's being said as it relates to the 996).

BTW, while the 986 and Cayman also have essentially the same motor, it's positioned in front of the rear axle. As a result, it's not at the end of the arm as with the 996/997 and in theory would be slightly less susceptible to oil starvation as a result, although it is still a potential concern. As an example, look at Brey-Krause's product for an extended sump. They decided to develop it for a reason, I'm sure. Just some more food for thought.

RF5BPilot

- It seems to me that if the engine suffered oil starvation, it would have been bearings or something else that would have failed rather than a cam chain. I would not expect that to be the first thing to go.
- Since Porsche does make specific vehicles for track and racing, it doesn't take advanced intelligence to say that this engine was not intended for the track. But, you don't have to by a 917 just to go to the track. In fact, Porsche as much as any other marque, has a history of blending track and street vehicles. If we only used race-specific designs on the track, that would decimate SCCA and a host of other opportunities for racing--which do very well without race-specific designs. (And, in fact, you could arguue they are more reliable and safer because they are using vehicles & engines that have had more extensive testing than most race-specific programs could afford.)
- **** happens. Sorry you lost your cam chain and it caused the resulting damage. Could have happened under any circumstances. Was it hastened by tracking? Maybe. Maybe not. On the other hand, it's an opportunity to mess about with your engine. There is little question, if you can't do your own engine and suspension work, tracking or racing will be more expensive for you....as, traditionally, it was only the genuinely wealthy that went racing and had others prep their cars. But, it does come as a shock when you feel you've had a budget in mind, then something happens to blow that away. Hence, the old addage, "Don't race what you can't roll and walk away from." ("walk away" as in send it to the junk yard and start over)
- On a different note, I encourage you to find a different mechanic. Tracking has an inherent level of physical & financial risk. Who would be a better mechanic? Someone who is supportive and shares your enthusiasm? Or someone who wants to talk down to you and try to make you feel like an idiot? It doesn't seem like your current "support group" will make the best choices for you nor have the experience to really add any wisdom, knowledge, advice, tricks, etc.

nowata

I asked about the Accusump and was told that it engages upon sensing low pressure, by which time the damage has been done.

I understand and agree with the point that a used car is perhaps not the best candidate and any hobby of this nature come with an element of risk.

Considering all that, I was still made to feel like a dummy for expecting the 996 to hold up at any level under track use.

Seriously, the question hardly left my mouth before the mechanics were providing an answer. To quote a major Chicago area Porsche dealer who happened to be at Road America, "Road America takes out tons of 996's. The carousel is what really does them in. I have a customer who has blown three 3.4L motors on the carousel. he installed an accusump and claims that it ticks off everytime he's in the carousel."

he went on to recommend a 997 3.8L upgrade or a "motorsport 3.4L with a modified oil pan.

another highly respected Porsche shop quoted, "the 996 was never meant for track use. the cars came new with stickers that warned of putting stickier tires on the car for fear of added stress to the oil systems."

TheSpeedDemon

Well here I am, just joined the PCA-GGR and looking at DE'ing my '99 996 C2 2/3 times a year. I am not the original owner, the only real mod (non-aesthetic) has been made to the suspension, and the tyres are PS2's.

Now that I have read this thread and I am very worried about running my car at any track. I understand that stuff happens and now that I am pushing the car to more upper limits during the event I can expect to have problems. But what I read is close to telling me "DON'T RACE IT!!!"

So for someone like me that is new to owning a Porsche and wants to experience such a car on the track, am I now to abandon that ???

Ray S

How does this "expert" explain all of the success these cars have running in GAC, Club Racing, and DE's? (Please tell me these aren't the guys selling toy cars and T-shirts out of the dealer tents)

If 996 motors are blowing in the Carousel why didn't it happen to all of the 996's running there last weekend (there were plenty at the event)?

Bottom line, if you take this dealers word the track should have been littered with broken 996's last weekend. I was at the event mass failures did not happen. I have done roughly 5 track days at RA every year for the past 6 years and I have never witnessed mass 996 failures at any of these events. How do you explain that? Has this dealer torn down the motors he has seen fail to determine the cause (after all there are many different ways for a motor to fail)? It is my understanding that many dealers don't even open failed motors up (they just crate them and return them to Porsche as a core exchange). Have your experts done teardowns to determine the cause?

There is a lot of evidence that your dealer is making bold claims that do not seem to hold true for all of these cars at the track.

Ray S

This is my point. The word of these "experts" seems silly when you look at how many of these cars see track use every weekend at tracks all around the country. I would bet that every weekend at various US race tracks hundreds of 996's are flogged about. Yet you just don't see an "RMS style" outrage of of consistent failure.

How do you explain that?

AndyK

The Porsche promo video "Everything We know So Far" on Coochas's site shows the "new" 996, being flogged around on a track by potential buyers. Is this different than all out racing? I guess. But aren't all Porsches designed to be used for driving fast - tested at the redline even before they are sold?

michael.s.under

Im not even going to waste my breath, ****!!! I already did!

Holger B

Maybe you're being sarcastic, but I'll chime in with my 2 cents.

Read what the others posted about 8 year old cars. Things can and do break.

Unless you already have a TON of track experience, you wont be stressing the car hard enough to damage it assuming it's properly maintianed and excluding possible off-track excursions.

A DE is not a "race". Don't confuse the two, they are completely different.

Take it to the track and enjoy the experiences that you'll never have on the street.