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Child seat safe for a toddler?

 
Old 07-12-2007, 01:41 PM
  #31  
TD in DC
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Originally Posted by michael.s.under
Some interesting info, there have been an array of public service announcements reminding people that based on government tests stating that until 4 feet tall and 100 pounds children should be in booster seats for adequate protection. That being said, I too have a 4 year old and she currently rolls in a Britax car seat, I need to change to a booster soon. Im not very confident in the base fitment of the seat.
Take out the seat bottom and use a towel if necessary.
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Old 07-12-2007, 01:46 PM
  #32  
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Good tip, but I tried, I think mine seat is just very wide on the base. Has anyone ever used the Britex Romer Porsche carseat with the porsche fabric/logo etc...
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Old 07-12-2007, 01:58 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by TD in DC


No seriously though, the Parkway didn't work because your seatbacks tilt forward? If not for that, I don't know why it would work fine in mine and not yours. Did you remove the seat bottoms?
No, I did not think to remove the cushion and never would have thought about it except for this thread.

I had a pair of Parkways in my wife's car and I tried them in the cab, but it didn't work. My memory is that it didn't work because of the bottom, but now that I'm thinking about it, it's possible they didn't work because of the seatback, as you suggest. I mostly recall being pissed off about needing to buy two more seats on top of the six or eight we'd gone through over the years.

CP
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Old 07-12-2007, 02:38 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by TD in DC
No need to tell me to take it easy. I aimed my comments at Freakonomic, not you.

But the lack of data does not suggest that your assertion, even if true, is relevant in any way with respect to whether you use a booster and/or car seat.

You can place a kid in the back seat, strap the seatbelt around them, and see that it is not properly positioned. Specifically, visual inspection easily verifies that, at least with smaller children, seatbelts alone will never be as safe as seatbelts with a properly sized and installed booster and/or childseat. Moreover, unless it can be shown that a booster or childseat could increase the danger to the child (might be possible, but I don't see it), you literally have NOTHING to lose by using a booster or car seat.

My comments regarding seatbelt vs. no seatbelt were based on the following logic: booster or childseat is part of the seatbelt mechanism. It is an adaptor designed to ensure that the seatbelt is properly placed across the child. It is not really a separate system at all and, (and I feel very confident in this assertion) you have no business using mere seatbelts with a child who is too young. So, the only real choice should be between properly used seatbelts (which means using a booster and/or childseat) or no seatbelt at all. The other choice: seatbelt alone or seatbelt plus booster and/or childseat is not really a separate choice at all.
TD, We may be beating a dead horse here. Or at least I may be. I think that there's more agreement between us then is obvious at first glance. I think that we're just interpreting some amibiguity differently, and therefore in conflict. Which reminds me of marriage.

Re. relevance of my assertion. It was not my intent to make any concrete suggestion about if and when to use a kid seat or a booster seat. The point that I intended to make was more along the lines of 1) From the standpoint of human nature, isn't it interesting how "What is Right" can change one decade to the next? And 2) The popular conception that child seats are obviously safer, may based on surprisingly weak data. What does that tell us about how popular conceptions are formed?

I wasn't trying to say "don't use a childseat", etc.

Re. seatbelt vs. no seatbelt. If I understand your point correctly you are defining a properly used seatbelt as including a childseat or booster. Therefore seatbelt vs. no seatbelt becomes childseat/booster or no seatbelt. But I think that what we are really talking about is "childseat/booster, or any other system that properly positions the seatbelt". And there are other systems. But this issue kinda just boils down to semantics. I think that we agree, we're just using different words.


Re. the Freakonomics data. Sometimes when we analyze the data, our preconceptions take some hits. That's what the whole book is about. Obviously there is a limit to how much you can prove with general data. That is to say data sets that weren't specifically structured to analyze a specific question. I was surprised to find that ALL of the studies that showed the efficacy of child seats compared them to a complete lack of restraint.

Perceptions of safety are far more complex then safety statistics. It's very human to get wrapped up in a safety issue all out of proportion to it's stastical likelihood. Our challenge is to resist that.

Re. you've nothing to lose by using a childseat. That's backwards. We make choices about cost/benefit of actions and items every hour. Is the cost/benefit of a childseat superior to all of the other options? I don't know. I do know that I want to do something because it makes the most sense. There's a lot of ways to do a decent job of securing a kid in a back seat. Each has plus's and minuses. Each parent should chose their own road. But they should make choices armed with good info, not misunderstandings fed by by car seat manufacturers, do-gooders and the nanny-state.

The fact that the government tells me that I must use a car seat doesn't strike much a chord with me. Speaking as a fanatical Libertarian, we're supposed to be telling the government what to do, not them us.

Another approach has occured to me. There is no "clash" here. I am saying that the data supporting childseats being safer might be weak. If you said "no, the data is strong", then we could argue.

You are saying, if I understand correctly, "seatbelts have to be properly positioned. A critical component of that is boosters and childseats". If I said "seatbelts don't have to be properly positioned, then we could argue.

But since neither of the above are true, we don't have enough conflict to stoke a good arguement. We, therefore, have no alternative but to link up and drink beer. Except that we live too far apart.

Luck to you TD. <g>
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Old 07-12-2007, 03:05 PM
  #35  
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Yes, I never viewed us personally as being in that much conflict, which is why I said no need to tell me to take it easy.

Originally Posted by Ranger
You are saying, if I understand correctly, "seatbelts have to be properly positioned. A critical component of that is boosters and childseats".
This is exactly my point. I am unaware of anything else that is readily available to the public apart from car/booster seats to help enure that seatbelts are properly positioned in publicly available cars. I wasn't referring to laws or anything else.

I am strongly biased. Last year, I put a race car into a wall at 87 mph. I had paid attention to all of the safety equipment, and I walked away without a single bruise or sore spot. Yesterday, I was almost hit by a driver running a red light at 40 mph. The impact spot would have been right where my daughter usually sits. So, this is a topic that has been very much on my mind.

Peace, and I always enjoy sharing a beer, or scotch, or wine, or cigars, or all of the above.
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Old 07-12-2007, 03:18 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by TD in DC
I am strongly biased. Last year, I put a race car into a wall at 87 mph. I had paid attention to all of the safety equipment, and I walked away without a single bruise or sore spot. Yesterday, I was almost hit by a driver running a red light at 40 mph. The impact spot would have been right where my daughter usually sits. So, this is a topic that has been very much on my mind.

Peace, and I always enjoy sharing a beer, or scotch, or wine, or cigars, or all of the above.
Dang, TD. Having a kid make a close brush with death or serious injury would certainly make one lay awake at night. I'm sure I have plenty of that in my future. Unless they suddenly take a keen interest in interior decorating, I fear that I'm raising 3 infantrymen. But at least I don't have to worry about who they date. Well, unless they take up interior decorating as a lifestyle, I suppose. But one worry at a time.

No more walls TD.

Does this qualify as a thread hijack?

Off to CMP. Luck to all.
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Old 07-12-2007, 07:01 PM
  #37  
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Here's also more locations for scientific and medical information if you are so inclined to research. It won't be based on "infant" vs. "toddler". Rather, for the most part, age, height, weight, ability to hold the head up etc.

Regards,
Marc

Here’s the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia (CHOP) a website that has a lot of information about child safety with regard to seats and travel in vehicles etc. Might as well go read some of the scientific and medical resources and what their recommendations are. The longer you can keep your child in the recommended location and restraint system you have the safer they will be.

http://www.chop.edu/consumer/jsp/div...c.jsp?id=77971

Education resources:

http://www.chop.edu/consumer/jsp/div...c.jsp?id=83350

Click on library of educational materials which will take you to here:

http://stokes.chop.edu/programs/inju...onal_advocacy/

Partners for child passenger safety reports:

http://stokes.chop.edu/programs/inju...onal_advocacy/

Charts and images:

http://stokes.chop.edu/programs/inju...rts_images.php

etc,
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Old 07-12-2007, 07:54 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by TD in DC


Sounds like what happened to me. When we only had one child, I owned a Boxster S, and my wife had a Toyota Sienna. When my wife found out that she was pregnant with twins, she told me that "the Porsche must go." I tried to resist, pointing out that she has the Sienna, but she, correctly, noted that if I were home alone with the twins and there was an emergency, I would not be able to take the twins to the hospital.

So I sold the Boxster S. Two days later I drove home in the Targa, in which I had already placed two baby seats in the back. My wife flipped out when she saw me driving up in a 911. Then I pointed out the baby seats, and she started laughing. Now we affectionately refer to it as "the family car." Now she likes it, and we are both happy to go out on our "date nights" in the 911 rather than the minivan. My car is always waiting in front of the restaurant when we are ready to leave. Somehow I do not think that would be the case in the minivan . . .
You have a great wife . I liked this story especially the part where you wrote "..Then I pointed out the baby seats, and she started laughing". That's great
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Old 07-12-2007, 07:57 PM
  #39  
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Thanks!

I completely agree that I am a card carrying member of the undeserving husband club. I hope that most of you guys are too (which means, in my book, that you win).
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Old 07-12-2007, 08:11 PM
  #40  
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Thanks to lapistola for starting this thread and to the rest of you for the great info/discussion. I subscribed to this thread with the thought of having to look for a car seat someday. So I figured, why not keep this handy. Don't know about the good husband part (I hope I am at least) but I do know there are some great dads here that's for sure. Everyone is writing about what the BEST car seat is, that to me shows you are all good parents

My parents on the other hand just threw me in the back of the pickup and hoped I was in there when they came to a stop Just kidding of course...
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Old 07-12-2007, 09:22 PM
  #41  
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There is always a risk in anything we do, nothing is perfectly safe, not even a tank. That said, the fact that you would even question the safety for your child means that you are not a bad father (at least in this respect ). I have wanted a 911 in some form for over 20 years, and agonized over this same decision/dilemma. This is a purchase of passion, not necessity, so it makes it more difficult to justify, but honestly, I have no issues with putting the most precious part of my life in my car, at least no more than any other car.

I am sure there are safer cars, and I am sure there are less safe cars, and I am sure it also depends on the situation, but I will say this, I had a 1986 944 turbo that got into a wreck when some moron (with no license or insurance) tried to make a left turn into my passenger door at 45 mph across 2 lanes of traffic. I was able to veer away from a direct hit, and what I learned was this: I would have not had the ability to avoid much of this hit in 95% of the other cars out there (braking, steering, and handling), and when I did get hit, I was able to maneuver around some pedestrians, and besides a shattered passenger window, you would never know from the inside of the car that it was hit. The outiside had damage from wheel to wheel, and the car was almost totaled.

There is inherent risk in just about everything we do in life, the risk obviously increases when we don't take precautions, so we have to do our best to make sure we are as cautious as humanly possible in all the situations that life throws at us and especially our children. All things being equal, I do tend to drive, let's say, much less spirited, when my baby is in the car.

There is quite a bit of information on this topic, a search will give you plenty to digest. I recently added a child seat to my 996 cab and am very happy with the results - aesthetically and the idea of taking my 2yo for a ride. Below is a link to a previous pic of my installation and a few tips.



Link to baby seat post
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Old 07-13-2007, 12:11 AM
  #42  
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Thanks so much. I truly appreciate the great info and insights!

I too have had some unfortunate collision experience in Porsches. The worst was in a 2001 996 C2 Coupe when a person from another country (who later denied payment or insurance, thus leaving me with the bill) turned left in front of me at an intersection (speed limit 60). I was probably doing 55 and attempted to avoid her, but we nailed each other at a semi-head-on angle. I then spun around and hit her car again on the other side, then bounced off a curb and two other cars. The repair bill was $18,000 and included frame damage, a replaced door, bumper, hood, and a few quarter panels, etc. I didn't have a scratch on me though! Not even a bruise. Ever since then I've had a lot of respect for Porsche crash safety!
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Old 02-10-2009, 02:07 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by TD in DC View Post
Between the active safety (great handling and great brakes) and passive safety (very good chassis rigidity and crush zones), I would put the 911 right up with the better cars from a safety perspective.

In fact, we refer to my 996 as the "family car" around my house.

I have found that the best booster seats for the 996 are the Britax Parkway. The key factor is that you need a seat that is narrow at the top. The Parkway curves back in at the top, which is very helpful. Finally, always remove the seat bottoms. They are held in by velcro, so they are easy to install and remove.
I don't even have kids, but I gotta say those seats are pretty darn cool.
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Old 02-10-2009, 08:44 PM
  #44  
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Britax car seats in the cab... works like a charm!
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Old 02-10-2009, 11:44 PM
  #45  
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I bought a britax roundebout and took the bottom part off....now it fits in the 996....but there isn't much space for her feet....maybe I got an extra short version of the 996 cab.. (for Tim..it think because of the Tip my Porsche has less space between back of front seat and backseat!!LOL)

I did something better for safety..I bought a HUGE escalade and this thing has airbags all around...drives, handles and it thirsty like a tank.....but I feel okay( just okay) when my wife takes the kids out shopping.
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