Traction Control Off
08-26-2013, 10:52 AM
#16
Drifting
Otherwise you not only have a "dead" LSD but also a non-functional rear differential.....
08-26-2013, 11:01 AM
#17
Drifting
As far as my research has indicated TC in only available in the MkI C2 WITH a mech LSD. I know this as I have one. TC is not an LSD, it is a separate system. I run with mt TC off when I autocross and track my car. I can feel the LSD working. The only way to verify you have a mechanical LSD it is jack up the rear of the car and rotate one wheel. If the opposite wheel is turning I the same direction, there it a LSD present. If it rotate in the opposite direction you have a open diff.
Sounds as if you have never tried this yourself...
If the driveshaft is locked the only way you can turn one rear wheel is for the opposing wheel to turn in the opposite direction.
The last I knew the only way to test for an LSD is to have the driveshaft free to rotate, one wheel on the ground and using a torque wrench to measure the effort required (~70 ft/lbs..??) to turn the "off-the-ground" wheel.
08-26-2013, 11:36 AM
#18
220 = LSD
224 = Active Brake Differential
222 = Kindel has no answer, but I thinks it is Traction Control because my car has TC and the code.
As a guess, maybe almost half of the '99s have these.
08-26-2013, 12:36 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
TC, Traction Control, can be used, and is used, to "simulate" a mechanical LSD.
TC can/will apply, QUICKLY apply, individual braking to whichever, or both, rear wheels having lost roadbed traction. It will also dethrottle the engine, sometimes severely so, in order to help regain traction.
"..I can feel the LSD working..."
Sure, like I can "feel" the front wheel "driving" in my C4.....
For the factory to ship a car with TC(/LSD) and a mechainical LSD also would undoubtedly require a special order.
TC can/will apply, QUICKLY apply, individual braking to whichever, or both, rear wheels having lost roadbed traction. It will also dethrottle the engine, sometimes severely so, in order to help regain traction.
"..I can feel the LSD working..."
Sure, like I can "feel" the front wheel "driving" in my C4.....
For the factory to ship a car with TC(/LSD) and a mechainical LSD also would undoubtedly require a special order.
As for my ability to feel the LSD working I can, especially in tight right turns where with an open diff you can get wheelspin. I can power out with losing time burning rubber with the LSD. And as I have also driven many all wheel driver sports car ( lambos, audis), I can say that I can feel the front tire pulling me around turns in certain situations.
You don't know me and what I have experienced in my life but your attitude towards me, is condescending and insulting.
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peterp (10-14-2021)
08-26-2013, 12:40 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
"..in the same direction...."
Sounds as if you have never tried this yourself...
If the driveshaft is locked the only way you can turn one rear wheel is for the opposing wheel to turn in the opposite direction.
The last I knew the only way to test for an LSD is to have the driveshaft free to rotate, one wheel on the ground and using a torque wrench to measure the effort required (~70 ft/lbs..??) to turn the "off-the-ground" wheel.
Sounds as if you have never tried this yourself...
If the driveshaft is locked the only way you can turn one rear wheel is for the opposing wheel to turn in the opposite direction.
The last I knew the only way to test for an LSD is to have the driveshaft free to rotate, one wheel on the ground and using a torque wrench to measure the effort required (~70 ft/lbs..??) to turn the "off-the-ground" wheel.
Your method just checks the amount of locking the LSD has ( how worn it is).
08-26-2013, 03:44 PM
#21
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
As far as I know the way LSD works is that when the car is in neutral (manual transmission, C2), you spin one wheel and the other should turn the other way.
08-26-2013, 04:00 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
08-26-2013, 04:13 PM
#23
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
Jeebuz the hell is wrong with me today. That's what I get typing while walking. Meant to write both spin the same way if the limites slip is present and the manual transmission is in neutral.
08-27-2013, 12:37 PM
#24
Drifting
And it isn't the LSD as such, but the normal action of an open differential.
LSD(***1) basically prevents, up to a point, an unequal L/R, R/L torque distribution.
LSD: Spring "loaded", engaged, frictional clutch pak, ALWAYS engaged. "Limited" (~70-90 ft/lbs) coupling together the inside ends, splined ends, of the opposite rear drive "axles".
Yes, LSD functionality(***2) is ALWAYS included with TC on RWD cars.
(***1) Subject is LSD, Limited Slip Differential, NOT a torque sensing differential
(***2) Differential braking is used to simulate the function of a mechanical LSD at low speeds.
It would be unusual in the extreme to have both TC and a mechanical LSD. One would have to know to turn TC off in order to make use, have used, of the mechanical LSD.
08-27-2013, 12:56 PM
#25
Drifting
AND...with the input drive shaft in gear, locked, the opposite wheel will ALWAYS rotate in opposition(***) to the wheel you're turning with a torque wrench.
*** After/with the LSD's 70 ft/lb "breakaway" resistance.
It can be NO other way.
Last edited by wwest; 08-27-2013 at 01:22 PM.
08-27-2013, 01:04 PM
#26
Drifting
Nope, The wheels will spin in the same direction.
ONLY if the differential input drive shaft is free to rotate. As is obviously the case in the video, although not mentioned, pointed out. Lock the drive shaft with the parking brake, although with LSD resistance, the wheels MUST rotate in opposition.
How to check for a Limited Slip Differential The Easy Way! (LSD DIFF) - YouTube
ONLY if the differential input drive shaft is free to rotate. As is obviously the case in the video, although not mentioned, pointed out. Lock the drive shaft with the parking brake, although with LSD resistance, the wheels MUST rotate in opposition.
How to check for a Limited Slip Differential The Easy Way! (LSD DIFF) - YouTube
..
08-27-2013, 01:17 PM
#27
Drifting
During my car search I found many 1999's with options 220, 222 and 224, so many that I thought they were bundled.
220 = LSD
224 = Active Brake Differential
222 = Kindel has no answer, but I thinks it is Traction Control because my car has TC and the code.
As a guess, maybe almost half of the '99s have these.
220 = LSD
224 = Active Brake Differential
222 = Kindel has no answer, but I thinks it is Traction Control because my car has TC and the code.
As a guess, maybe almost half of the '99s have these.
08-27-2013, 01:35 PM
#28
Drifting
TC with LSD is not a special order. I have seen several of these cars and there are seferal here on Rennlist. Also I have never seen a car with TC and not have LSD, but I suppose it is possible.
It would be foolish of a manufacturer to supply TC functionality and not use that same capability to provided a "simulated" LSD.
The reason TC is pared with LSD is that in wet/slippery condition the car is much more likely to slide and the TC help alleviate that. With an open diff this is not as big an issue.
As for my ability to feel the LSD working I can, especially in tight right turns where with an open diff you can get wheelspin.
It would be unusual in the extreme for you to be able to butt sense, feel, the 70-90 ft/lb breakaway torque, "at speed", of an ACTUAL LSD, and the TC enabled LSD is typically disabled above ~20 MPH.
I can power out with losing time burning rubber with the LSD.
MY '99 C2, with TC off, NEVER lost time burning rubber on a reasonably tractive surface.
And as I have also driven many all wheel driver sports car ( lambos, audis), I can say that I can feel the front tire pulling me around turns in certain situations.
Yes, most certainly so, especially if you begin with a F/awd vehicle. Or, say, a REAL R/awd system such as we find in the later 997's.
You don't know me and what I have experienced in my life but your attitude towards me, is condescending and insulting.
It would be foolish of a manufacturer to supply TC functionality and not use that same capability to provided a "simulated" LSD.
The reason TC is pared with LSD is that in wet/slippery condition the car is much more likely to slide and the TC help alleviate that. With an open diff this is not as big an issue.
As for my ability to feel the LSD working I can, especially in tight right turns where with an open diff you can get wheelspin.
It would be unusual in the extreme for you to be able to butt sense, feel, the 70-90 ft/lb breakaway torque, "at speed", of an ACTUAL LSD, and the TC enabled LSD is typically disabled above ~20 MPH.
I can power out with losing time burning rubber with the LSD.
MY '99 C2, with TC off, NEVER lost time burning rubber on a reasonably tractive surface.
And as I have also driven many all wheel driver sports car ( lambos, audis), I can say that I can feel the front tire pulling me around turns in certain situations.
Yes, most certainly so, especially if you begin with a F/awd vehicle. Or, say, a REAL R/awd system such as we find in the later 997's.
You don't know me and what I have experienced in my life but your attitude towards me, is condescending and insulting.
"...is condesending and insulting..."
Yes.
08-27-2013, 02:11 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
Well I'll take the higher road here. Regardless of what you think is foolish, My car does indeed have a mech LSD with TC.
P.S. if you are going to edit my quoted posts, you could at least fix my spelling errors too. :-)
P.S. if you are going to edit my quoted posts, you could at least fix my spelling errors too. :-)