HOW STRONG IS THE C4 DRIVETRAIN??
03-05-2007, 04:40 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
OK Ray, so maybe my post should have been, it'll cost you more than 5k to get 500 wheel HP reliably, like the poster said he was going to do. NONE of your examples are less than 10k, if not more like 20k+...this is why people put the extra 20k into a TT and then mod it. Nowadays a TT is only about 10k more than a comparable 996 of the same year....but again, I wish him the best of luck...
03-05-2007, 04:53 PM
#32
475 at the crank is about 130-150 hp short of 500 to the wheel.
IT could be done, but its really not practacal to do with a m96 engine. If i had the time (and a 996) id probaly play around to see how much it would hold, but I really thing there are to many defienceys in the engine design to support 600 fwhp reliably especialy with forced induction.
Im all for trying it...................... best of luck to you and let me know how it comes out
IT could be done, but its really not practacal to do with a m96 engine. If i had the time (and a 996) id probaly play around to see how much it would hold, but I really thing there are to many defienceys in the engine design to support 600 fwhp reliably especialy with forced induction.
Im all for trying it...................... best of luck to you and let me know how it comes out
03-05-2007, 06:02 PM
#33
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O.k. mister smarty pants... What breaks in a motor at this level???
I know as much as anyone about a forced induction motor in general. After all, not only do I build them from scratch, I tune them as well. Sucks to ask some questions on a forum and then have to come on and defend yourself.
I do not hear of blocks breaking, so with that said, a simple piston/rod swap would eliminate the breakable parts in the motor. As long as blocks are not splitting and heads are not lifting, you can make as much power as you want, 500, 600, 700 etc.
Boost makes up for any bottlenecks in the engine tat normally limit power.
Also, if you understand how a dry sump works, you will know it has no effect whatsoever on engine power capacity. It is simply a different kind of oil pump best suited to cars that see tracks use because you do not have to worry about sucking air in oil slosh situations.
What is with the troll comment?? I am on hear researching, which is something it sounds like you need to do more of yourself.
Thanks to all for the info!
I know as much as anyone about a forced induction motor in general. After all, not only do I build them from scratch, I tune them as well. Sucks to ask some questions on a forum and then have to come on and defend yourself.
I do not hear of blocks breaking, so with that said, a simple piston/rod swap would eliminate the breakable parts in the motor. As long as blocks are not splitting and heads are not lifting, you can make as much power as you want, 500, 600, 700 etc.
Boost makes up for any bottlenecks in the engine tat normally limit power.
Also, if you understand how a dry sump works, you will know it has no effect whatsoever on engine power capacity. It is simply a different kind of oil pump best suited to cars that see tracks use because you do not have to worry about sucking air in oil slosh situations.
What is with the troll comment?? I am on hear researching, which is something it sounds like you need to do more of yourself.
Thanks to all for the info!
Originally Posted by newport996
Lets be realistic....if you want to perform surgery, dont use a steak knife. Use the right tool for the job. He said he wants a "bulletproof" 500WHP motor, and a car to beat people at stoplights. NEITHER is a NA 996. How many NA 996's have EVER gone to 500HP? NONE....so why not inform him that:
A: He WILL NOT get 500HP out of that motor at the crank and definitely not at the wheels.
B: The car is not designed to have breakneck speeds from a dead stop. He mentioned the Audi AWD system which is probably the BEST dead stop car out there as you can launch that car and not burn clutches and or break other components.
C: The 996 is a drivers car with great HP and great handling and appreciate it for that.
D: If he wants 500+ HP, he needs a TT as the platform.
I dont care how much he knows his way around a motor, you cant get the 500HP from a M96 engine....
I guess what we are telling him is that as Porsche owners, we usually are not racing EVO's and WRX's from stoplight to stoplight. Bottom line is he wants the prestige of owning a Porsche, but wants to street race it. Its not a street racer....He could save alot of money and get a 944 turbo and then he can get hos 500HP, and still have a Porsche and save about 20K....But a 996 is not a drag car and not a street racer, it was designed to go fast, turn fast, and stop fast...not just go VERY fast in a straight line. I think all the responses have been actually very nice and I personally think he's a troll, or a 12 year kid with nothing better to do....but no one yet has called him that.....I say that everyone is being quite civil.
A: He WILL NOT get 500HP out of that motor at the crank and definitely not at the wheels.
B: The car is not designed to have breakneck speeds from a dead stop. He mentioned the Audi AWD system which is probably the BEST dead stop car out there as you can launch that car and not burn clutches and or break other components.
C: The 996 is a drivers car with great HP and great handling and appreciate it for that.
D: If he wants 500+ HP, he needs a TT as the platform.
I dont care how much he knows his way around a motor, you cant get the 500HP from a M96 engine....
I guess what we are telling him is that as Porsche owners, we usually are not racing EVO's and WRX's from stoplight to stoplight. Bottom line is he wants the prestige of owning a Porsche, but wants to street race it. Its not a street racer....He could save alot of money and get a 944 turbo and then he can get hos 500HP, and still have a Porsche and save about 20K....But a 996 is not a drag car and not a street racer, it was designed to go fast, turn fast, and stop fast...not just go VERY fast in a straight line. I think all the responses have been actually very nice and I personally think he's a troll, or a 12 year kid with nothing better to do....but no one yet has called him that.....I say that everyone is being quite civil.
03-05-2007, 06:42 PM
#34
theres no simple rod and piston swap for these cars i dont know of any aftermarket suppliers for either. I would also suspet the crank would fail at those power levels but have never been there so Im only guessing i have seen broken cranks on stock m96 motors .
The block aligment has been questionalbe from the start onthe m96 (im not speaking either way on this) and the streo has the sngh of the cylinders them selves( staying quiet on that too) .
The heads lifting is also a definate posibiltiy as we do see headgasket failures on stock na cars, head gaskets.......... I dont think your going to find any aftermarket for this either so plan on o ringing the block.
and then theres the stress on the valve train, finding valve springs that will close under the added pressure and the additional stress on timing chains and the intermedate shaft.
really you would be far better ahead to start with a turbo/gt car or start with a 996 and use an air cooled motor
The block aligment has been questionalbe from the start onthe m96 (im not speaking either way on this) and the streo has the sngh of the cylinders them selves( staying quiet on that too) .
The heads lifting is also a definate posibiltiy as we do see headgasket failures on stock na cars, head gaskets.......... I dont think your going to find any aftermarket for this either so plan on o ringing the block.
and then theres the stress on the valve train, finding valve springs that will close under the added pressure and the additional stress on timing chains and the intermedate shaft.
really you would be far better ahead to start with a turbo/gt car or start with a 996 and use an air cooled motor
03-05-2007, 06:52 PM
#35
Burning Brakes
First off, my posts are not meant to make you defend yourself....what I PERSONALLY think is my opinion, and why should you care what I think personally? But anyway, thats what I said, 'I Think...." and if you are not, my apologies for thinking you were....as for my info...its based on my knowledge and research I have done on M96 engines. I am on my 2nd M96 engined car and I looked into what was available and why there were not more options. The first thing I said was, I have a Boxster, can't I just bolt on a few turbos and bump it up a few hundred HP? Then I realized the answer was yes, if you wanna spend $20K+, and there is no long term reliability tests because so few have done it. Then there was the supercharger question and yes its done alot more often, and there are some with good results and some with bad results....for me, it wasnt for me. I dont pretend to know the aprticulars of engine building as the last time I did any motor work was on a 1976 BMW 2002 and those were soooo simple to work on....Also dont you have to modify the ECU with all that HP? and get the air/fuel ratio correct? if not can't it blow? Also will the sock injectors deliver enough fuel? Will you need larger injectors? How will you deal with the extra heat made by the Turbos? and where will you put the intakes for them? The TT has them in the rear fenders...I guess you could get something made for the rear wing, or decklid...but we are still dealing with cooling issues of 2 hot Turbos in the cramped engine compartment. There are not many aftermarket internal parts available for this engine so maybe you would have to have custom pistons and rods made? Those are just a few of the issues I know of that come to mind when trying to add that much HP to a NA engine.....maybe others will have solutions to those issues...maybe some are simple, maybe some are not, not sure....
03-05-2007, 08:12 PM
#36
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Turbos create heat but the heat is very controllable. Minor heat shielding will solve any potential heat problems you might have. Injectors woul have to be changed along with the factory fuel pump, simple aftermarket units will solve that problem. Headers can be made from some 321 stainles for about $900 bucks.
I do not know what is available for tuning yet, does someone sell software so you can tune yourself?
Well see what happens, Ideally it would be nice to find a C4 with a blown motor. I would just buy a turbo motor and throw that in, that's another option.
No way in hell I would pay the outrageous cost for a twin turbo car fronm the start. Used high mileage cars go for $60k+
So you guys do see cranks and blocks breaking? What happened?
I do not know what is available for tuning yet, does someone sell software so you can tune yourself?
Well see what happens, Ideally it would be nice to find a C4 with a blown motor. I would just buy a turbo motor and throw that in, that's another option.
No way in hell I would pay the outrageous cost for a twin turbo car fronm the start. Used high mileage cars go for $60k+
So you guys do see cranks and blocks breaking? What happened?
03-05-2007, 10:38 PM
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I want the C4 because I really like the launch capability of my A6 and a tiptronic C4 with turbos would screem! I hope. I may just toss a whole TT motor in a C4... Depends what I decide on in the end, and what I actually find. I don't know, I will have to see.
I can TT the C4 for about $7k with billet rods and forged pistons, I just have to find out more on the blocks and cranks though.
Like I said before If my TT Chevelle does not go for what I want I will keep that and spank on some Porsches at the track until I can save to buy a Porsche outright.
My other issue is that the wife is driving me nut, says I should buy an M5 instead for the "family". That does not impress me at all.
I can TT the C4 for about $7k with billet rods and forged pistons, I just have to find out more on the blocks and cranks though.
Like I said before If my TT Chevelle does not go for what I want I will keep that and spank on some Porsches at the track until I can save to buy a Porsche outright.
My other issue is that the wife is driving me nut, says I should buy an M5 instead for the "family". That does not impress me at all.
03-05-2007, 11:27 PM
#40
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by nitrorocket
I want the C4 because I really like the launch capability of my A6 and a tiptronic C4 with turbos would screem! I hope.
03-05-2007, 11:42 PM
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The trans are different? Dang!
Oh well, I just hate sticks in turbo cars, they suck.
Anyone want my car?? If you buy it I promise to build a modded to hell 996!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevr...QQcmdZViewItem
Oh well, I just hate sticks in turbo cars, they suck.
Anyone want my car?? If you buy it I promise to build a modded to hell 996!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevr...QQcmdZViewItem
03-06-2007, 11:30 AM
#42
Race Car
I honestly dont think you could spank any Porsches from the 996 variants with a 12-bolt rear end, plus a '71 Chevelle weighs nearly 4000lbs. Straight axles are too sketchy on curves.
On the tiptronic situation, get a tip out of a 997TT, it is probably stronger than the C4, but I dont know just something to look into.
The TTs are built strong on the low end, I think the vendors do not change out internals until about 650-750 hp. The blocks are indestructible, the rods and pistons are not from what I have read.
You need to jump on the 996TT forum and get a feel for what can be done.
Rods and pistons swaps on a 996 M96 motor will have to be custom made, maybe someone like Carillo (make Porsche rods already), JE (not to favored by the Porsche crowd), Mahle (makes Porsche pistons).
Being a Chevy guy, you should know about Eagle rods, Scat, and Trick flow, maybe they could make some custom rods for the 996.
On the tiptronic situation, get a tip out of a 997TT, it is probably stronger than the C4, but I dont know just something to look into.
The TTs are built strong on the low end, I think the vendors do not change out internals until about 650-750 hp. The blocks are indestructible, the rods and pistons are not from what I have read.
You need to jump on the 996TT forum and get a feel for what can be done.
Rods and pistons swaps on a 996 M96 motor will have to be custom made, maybe someone like Carillo (make Porsche rods already), JE (not to favored by the Porsche crowd), Mahle (makes Porsche pistons).
Being a Chevy guy, you should know about Eagle rods, Scat, and Trick flow, maybe they could make some custom rods for the 996.
03-06-2007, 06:13 PM
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The Chevelle weighs 3600 right now. I wish I had a chance to track it with the new suspension, looks like I will never know.
I will have to look into the trans thing.
I will have to look into the trans thing.
