As stated before, I've owned an M3 for several years and they will ALWAYS be a regular 3 series with upgraded components, nothing more.

Porsche has a premium and for a very good reason. To be honest this thread isn't going anywhere

 

Idiotic statement---v
There is a reason why Porsche is so profitable. They are the best cars made. It's the same reason why any business is more profitable when it has a superiour product. Supply and demand, my simple-minded friend.


My justification? Every time I get in and start the engine!

Design defects
The annual report by J.D. Power and Associates separated manufacturing and quality defects for the first time. This is how many design defects, such as difficult-to-use navigation systems or door locks, were reported per 100 vehicles. DESIGN SORT Design PP100
1 Porsche 35
2 Hyundai 41
3 GMC 43
4 Jaguar 44
5 Lexus 45
6 Nissan 45
7 Honda 46
8 Toyota 47
9 Chevrolet 49
10 Lincoln 50
11 Ford 50
12 Acura 51
13 Dodge 51
14 Mitsubishi 51
15 Infiniti 52
16 Industry Average 52
17 Saturn 54
18 Pontiac 55
19 Mercury 56
20 Jeep 56
21 Cadillac 57
22 Kia 58
23 Chrysler 59
24 Volvo 61
25 Audi 62
26 Scion 62
27 Saab 63
28 Mazda 64
29 Suzuki 66
30 Buick 68
31 Mercedes 68
32 Subaru 69
33 Isuzu 70
34 VW 73
35 Mini 77
36 Hummer 80
37 BMW 82
38 Land Rover 89

Manufacturing defects
The annual report by J.D. Power and Associates separated manufacturing and quality defects for the first time. This is how many manufacturing defects, such as engine or paint problems, were reported per 100 vehicles. Brands Defects PP100
1 Lexus 42
2 Porsche 49
3 Toyota 52
4 BMW 52
5 Hyundai 53
6 Chrysler 53
7 Cadillac 54
8 Buick 55
9 Honda 57
10 Infiniti 57
11 Jaguar 59
12 Audi 60
13 Acura 63
14 Lincoln 63
15 Industry Average 64
16 Volvo 64
17 Mercury 65
18 Mercedes 65
19 Mini 65
20 Subaru 67
21 Chevrolet 69
22 Ford 69
23 GMC 70
24 Nissan 70
25 Saturn 70
26 Pontiac 70
27 Scion 71
28 Dodge 72
29 Kia 72
30 Mitsubishi 78
31 Mazda 79
32 Hummer 79
33 Jeep 87
34 VW 87
35 Saab 91
36 Suzuki 93
37 Land Rover 106
38 Isuzu 110

2006 Nameplate rankings
Consumers reported the following number of quality problems -- including manufacturing defects and design flaws -- per 100 vehicles in J.D. Power and Associates' annual quality survey: Brands PP100
1 Porsche 91
2 Lexus 93
3 Hyundai 102
4 Toyota 106
5 Jaguar 109
6 Honda 110
7 Cadillac 117
8 Infiniti 117
9 GMC 119
10 Acura 120
11 Chrysler 120
12 Lincoln 121
13 Nissan 121
14 Chevrolet 124
15 Industry Average 124
16 Ford 127
17 Mercury 129
18 Saturn 129
19 Audi 130
20 Dodge 132
21 Pontiac 133
22 Volvo 133
23 Buick 134
24 Mitsubishi 135
25 Kia 136
26 Mercedes 139
27 Scion 140
28 BMW 142
29 Subaru 146
30 Mazda 150
31 Mini 150
32 Jeep 153
33 Saab 163
34 Suzuki 169
35 Hummer 171
36 VW 171
37 Isuzu 191
38 Land Rover 204

There are some very interesting differences here, especially with BMW depending on which ranking you view. IMO, this is how the report should have been laid out to begin with. Mercedes (one point below average) and BMW got killed not because of actual mechanical defects, but for "Design defects" which goes to nav systems and what not. I don't know how many buyers are qualified to make such a determination probably just because they understand how something works, that said MB/BMW could stand to simplify their cars, especially the electronics.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0cf225

 

I just noticed this thread and I've only read the past 1 1/2 pages, so forgive me if I repeat what another might have written. As my user name suggests, I am an M3 lover. I sold it for a GT3 a few months back. I loved my M3, but wanted a more focused car.

The M3 does everything well and given it's performance, build quality, hand built engine, useable trunk and backseat, it's hard to beat what I call a VALUE buy. I know it's hard to justify a car like that as a value, but considering what you get, it's pretty hard to argue that it is not.

I looked at 996's and 997's, but didn't see the performance being too dramatically different from the M3 to justify the price difference or the loss of utility you get with a real trunk and backseat and the performance. Is the 996 faster, yes, but it really depends on the driver. I've passed GT3's, Ferrari 360's, Corvettes on track, but I would never say the M3 is faster, it's really down to the drivers.

Going to the 996 GT3, the car is obviously more raw than a standard 996 or 997, and there is no utility, coupled with a higher price, you must be saying that I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth. However, the price premium I paid to upgrade from the M3 to the GT3 was worth the experience to drive a truly world class car -- a slepper exotic if you will.

Do you pay a premium for the Porsche name? Yes. Is it worth it. It is if you can afford it and want it. A P-car is a want, not need. Is it worth it to pay big $$ to get a few horsepower more in an aftermarket upgrade? Is it worth it to get bling bling wheels that cost $5k? Not to me, but it is to someone.

There is an exclusivity to the Porsche name and I've noticed they do get more attention than the BMW, as a Ferrari would get more attention than a Porsche.

Would I go back to BMW and another M3. You bet. When that new V8 comes out, I'm all over it, but I doubt it's going to see as much track time as the E-46 did. The M3's are becoming more heavy with each generation and going toward the AMG softness vs. the E-30 M3 rawness.

 

I know.....its part of living. Live and let live, buy whatever you want, who reeally gives a **** but you since you're going to be the one driving it.

 

Had 2002 M3. Now own 2002 C4S. Driving thrills: draw. Practicality: BMW. Exclusivity: Porsche by a landslide. The M3 looks too much like the ubiquitous 3 series. The 911 looks like nothing else on the road.

 

I don't hold too much stock in J.D. Power, since they recently bumped up Pontiac above Toyota in initial build quality. Granted, there are certainly some "design issues" with the complexity of the BMW electronics, but not any crazier that the ventilation controls on my 3.2 Carrera.

 

I hear ya. My only point was, it's a stupid point to make, that Porsches somehow cost too much and prices are inflated for any other reason, other than their prices are commensurate with quality/beauty/performance/heritage etc...

I'm probably being a noob by even dragging out this thread, but I shall continue...

Saying that we, P owners, have to justify the price by bragging or whatever is an insult. On the contrary, if you have't noticed, most of the respectful contributers of this board are opting out of this thread. Why? Cause they DO NOT have to justify themselves and their cars to anyone. Which nullifies that guys point completely!!

I digress - Go over to the M3 board, or the Subaru boards, or ricer boards for people that brag about how fast their cars are, or how they are better than Porsches for this reason, or that reason. How many kills they have wracked up this week. --- Generally speaking, we don't do that here. That's one reason that I love this board, and I LOVE being a P owner!!

 

there's a reason why i like this board. there are sane people in it without their heads in the clouds and so much of their d!cks tied to their autos to bring about some sense of worth beyond metal parts and glued plastic pieces... sometimes. hehe

i love some of the 911s. not all. to me a 911 is the GT3, the GT2, the Turbo. the carrera is still an excellent car and i'm still a big fan of an aerokitted one like that speed yellow example, but alas, on the lower rungs of 911dom, there are others who do it just as well and in other depts better so the whole 911 carrera is leagues better than the E46 M3 is grasping at the straws.

they're close enough to each other that you can have fun, totally inane arguments like the one in this thread that i've helped turn it into for which i don't apologize.

as for justfying, nullifying wtf? we're just chatting cars and leave it at that. once you get pride and all that other bs tied with an automobile it turns to babel.

 

 

[QUOTE=Benjamin Choi]my point is it IS close. the two are in the same performance class when you put the numbers togehter and more importantly than numbers when you actually get out on a track or even a canyon one is not pulling away from the other.

yes i agree, the steering and suspension and the sound of the 911 is great, but guess what... the E46 m3 is solid as well, but just goes about doing it differently in a more GT coupe sort of way.

sure the 911 is a great car... the Gt3, the gt2, the turbo... the 911 carrera...???? 997S makes it finally a cut above with that 3.8, but the 996 carrera is not which is the model line we're talking about here.

and fellas, there's no way in hell a 996 carrera is 2,900 lbs. that's honda s2000 weight or carrera weight dry. it's more like 3,100 wet.


And I'm telling you - based on direct, recent, personal experience - that it's NOT close. Unless you've driven the two cars back to back - like I have - your opinion is not based on fact, just speculation. My car is 3,000 pounds, vs 3,500 for the M3 copue.

 

my 996 is 3000 lbs wet WITH a full bolt on cage (~100lbs), race seats, spare tire/tools and 3/4 tank of gas and SC/intercooler/thirdradiator/boost cooler/fluids, etc.... it's more like 2800 when i take out all the mods and 1/4 tank. and yes, that was confirmed when i corner weighted my car. (ya i know, i should've taken the spare out but the tech forgot)

you might want to take your own advice and chill

 

I have a 330 coupe and a 911 C4. Again like people say, I like the bimma when I need to get the shopping or 4 people in the car, the rest of the time I take the Porsche. The Bimma has more comfort and more interior refinement and is good on long journeys. That said I would probably take the porsche on a long journey anyway because it is far more fun to drive. I also have an auto box in the bimma which makes it good for driving around town. So I think they have different purposes and this thread is silly. If I had to chose one in would be the porsche that would stay.

 

Benjamin, you are funny. You've come here serveral times asking about purchasing a 911. You never have..............as far as I know. You can't compare the two, because you've never owned one. My good freind just traded his m3 for a gallardo and guess what, my car was faster in every area, even a straight line. It was part of the reason he went ***** out for the Lambo. Now he is faster, but I'm working on that................... Why come to a Porcshe board and claim another car is better, you know you're going to get conflict. It's all good, nobody really cares. However, the M3 is a slower car, period.

 

it's not slower

handle candor

read my post again thru non-porsche warped glasses as i recognize the p-car as the better driver.

ain't nobody looking at a 996 carrera and saying it's an M3 beater because... it's not. same performance class kinda like comparing a fuji apple to a braeburn hehe

 

Ben, it's sad that you are so conflicted about your car choice that you see the need to troll.

The M3 is a great car, really it is! It offers almost as much performance in a more practical package at a much lower price.

However, the steering feel, weight, and chassis all conspire to make it feel like what it is, a sports sedan.

Trying to argue that a car is equal, because it's performance stats (0-60, 1/4 mile, Ring times, etc.) are close is like trying to argue that a steak at the Sizzler is "just as good" as a steak at Morton's because it has as many calories.

I hope your case of cognitive dissonance eases in the new year. Love the one you're with!