Adrian

Firstly I agree. Why can't the dealer find the problem. There is a entire network of Porsche engineers spanning the world, plus a department at Ludwigsberg set up to help the dealers in these situations. All they have to do is ask. This problem is not exactly unique. It has happened before. Surely they have access to the Porsche mechanics forum. Maybe it doesn't exist anymore.
They have the engine in bits on the table. Once they find the broken parts they get them in and then rebuild the engine. Two weeks and they still cannot work it out is a scandal.
I have noticed on this forum from 996 owners in the USA that nobody seems to actually want to fix these engines, why? The thing is in bits so fix it unless the owner says that they want a new engine and are prepared to pay for it. For all we know the problem is outside of the engine and the owner is getting a really raw deal here.
Is this a real Porsche dealership working on this 996 engine?
Ciao,
Adrian.

pj911

This is at a "Porsche dealership". The service manager and mechanic have been in contact with "Porsche" for technical advice and troubleshooting.
I have been swapping emails with another rennlister who is in the same exact situation - low miles with intermix problem, they can't diagnose it and are suggesting a new engine. The dealership is saying they can rebuild the engine for $6-$7k, but could still have the same problem because they don't know where issue is occuring (obviously not a good idea).

99firehawk

the problem is if the intermix is inside the engine, in a coolant passage or oil galley, you just dont know and you really cant ell, I have had 996 engines apart and traced the galleys and pasages with compressed air hey are pretty intricate and theres no good way to check them for leaking between passages.

the other thing is fixing the engines is rather expensive and isnt worth it. the parts for a rebuild are 4500-5000 on average + labor time to rebuild it.
id say 7500-8000 for a rebuild, and then what if something else fails 6 months later unrelated to the previous repair then your in the same boat.
its better for the customer and the dealer to replace the assembly and not have to worry.

That said I have rebuilt a few for customer who were out of warrenty who had minor failures, but
in an intermix or a metal scattering event recomend replacement

nick49

Mechanics are a dying breed.

We have a new generation of parts replacers out there that are not given the opportunity to learn how to diagnose a particular problem and find a solution to repair it.

I deal with this everyday.

joes c4 cab

When did dealers start tearing down motors to try and find the problem? I had this problem almost exactly one year ago and I could not find a dealer anywhere (and in fact had a hard time finding an independent) who would tear down the motor and actually tell me what went wrong.

Sorry for your trouble -that sucks I know. Best of luck

Adrian

Is it not true that the replacement engines are "rebuilt" not new ones? Therefore somebody is fixing them. I wonder if this is a PCNA policy rather than a PAG policy. I will ask and try and get a decent answer.
Ciao,
Adrian.

99firehawk

usualy replacment engines are rebuilt. they are bebuilt at the factory where they can be xrayed or sonic checked or whatever it is they do there they have all their parts and they have the tools lined up on their rebuiling bench and thats all they do all day is rebuild m96 engines , at the dealers its such an ordeal to do a rebuild, to order all the little seals and bolts and nuts and stuff that you need and to find all the tools that get uses once ervery few years, then you have people who have never done one or done one or 2 a few years ago its more effective to dend it out to the experinced guys rebuild the whole thing and replace the unit

Adrian

Sadly it seems that this is Porsche Germany policy. I have been checking with my own contacts on this situation and they tell that these engines (M96) are too hard to fix at the dealer or at workshop level.
They do have a department at the factory purely devoted to rebuilding these engines and it is quite profitable to engage in this policy.
Porsche have over 300,000 of these M96 type engines out and about (their figure not mine) and at 14K a time, can make them a lot of money.
To say I am disgusted is an understatement, but unless engine rebuild shops anywhere are prepared to invest in the necessary equipment to track down the problems then it is going to be exchange motors every time with a 14K price tag.
Ciao,
Adrian.

PS: I am going to check around and try to find any independents who have the necessary equipment to repair these engines. It might be helpful for owners who are out of warranty to know who they are if they exist.

99firehawk

I think 14k is a lil high I htink the last one I did was about 12k out the door.
now keep in mind that for the 12k you get a new motor, with a new alternator new starter new engine harness new t body new sensors ect ect ect ect its a complete crate motor minus the ac compressor

rcg412

14K is high, and I think the policy is crazy. However, brad has a good point, essentially you are getting a new Porsche motor, with all the additions for ~12K installed... plus 2Y warranty. Thats not too bad of a deal!

Orient Express

My 2 cents worth is that an updated and rebuilt engine from Porsche costs about $6000, and another $3-4K for installation.

don't pay more than $10K for a replacement engine, and don't let you local shop rebuild it for you, get a Porsche rebuild. It even comes with a warranty.

Fly911

Like myself, you are one of the many hundreds of unlucky early 996 owners. All water cooled engines (Boxster and 996) from 1997 through 2001 are potentially canidates for coolant/oil intermix. This is partly caused by bad engine block castings, and partly internal galvanic corrosion, where some of the metal will be sacrificed. It has nothing to do with milage, service or maintenance, and there is nothing to do to prevent it or detect it before it has actually happened. The only thing to do is a complete engine change out, since the engine block cooling passages are corroded. A 996 3.4 liter engine cost $8,200 from PCNA, if you return your complete old engine. If you don't have the old engine as a complete unit, the price is $4,000 more.
The whole cooling system including radiators, heater and hoses must be completely cleaned or changed, that will add a couple of thousand $$$.
Pro-Technik in Houston (281-879-8861) is doing my engine swap right now.
A 996 3.6 liter engine is much more expencive, and will also need a complete new ECU, and has also a different wiring harness. For the extra 25Hp, it's not worth it.
A complete 996 GT3 engine from PCNA is arount $90,000, nearly the cost of the complete car, so that is absolutely absurd.

99firehawk

6k is dreaming try 8-9k for a 996 engine 2-3k installataion

blk on blk

Many car companies are going to component replacement rather than repair in this day and age. I had my engine replaced at 5k miles, and they really never cared what the problem was. They found metal in the oil filter, and PCNA immediately replaced the engine. It doesn't matter to them any more from a repair persepctive what the problem is could be a .50 ring, or faulty cylinder, but either way their remedy is pull a new one off the shelf. I was also told by PCNA (and this may be BS) that Porsche does not recognize new or reman engine. They are simply replacement engines and they claim them to be new. I saw mine pulled out of the box, and it appears brand new complete assembly. BMW is now doing the same thing. They might work on a few things on the engine, but they are pretty much in the engine replacement mode as well at this point. I was told that tranny's and suspensions will be heading this way as well before long ultimately getting to the point where you basically own the body of the car, and lease the carriage and workings. you birng in for service and hey will unbolt the boady and put it on a new carriage. Who knows, but I found it interesting and after talking with many people engine replacement is not that big a deal.

Adrian

That maybe how much you charge Brad, but I called a number of people I know in the USA and got widely varying quotes. Your figures are the bottom end and most competitive.
One place out on your West coast quoted 16K up front and a full 4K rebate on the engine only if the crankcase halves were usable and 2K if they weren't. You get your rebate money only after the engine was deemed as usable. this is expected to take around a month. By the way this is quite common here in Europe when dealing with exchanges and rebuilt units from Porsche. Occassionally the dealer might take the risk, but usually they charge and then refund later.
I was also advised and somebody else mentioned this as well that they have to check ALL the coolant plumbing and the radiators. They need to be flushed and cleaned and in some cases if they are also found to be corroding they have to be replaced as well. Cost circa 2K.
Personally I think it might be worth checking around for the best deal.
Tomorrow I will do the same exercise here in Europe to see what I would be up for should the problem arise with my own 996 engine.
All of this is great for my 996 book research. The engine section just got a whole lot bigger and the search for a DIY solution is underway.
Ciao,
Adrian.