BruceP

Not stretched at all. The simple truth. I've been making my living with market research for 26 years. I'm not going to try to condense a course in statistics for you, here, but my comparison to a political convention was apt and precise. The issue is not the internet. The issue is a non-representative universe plus no sample design in a situation where bias would affect the outcome. Put another way, if one of the possible answers to a question involves something that has never happened to you, the sample has to be built and the responses weighted to reflect the population, since the results would otherwise likely overstate the responses from people to whom something DID happen. You'd get the same problem with a lost luggage poll on TripAdvisor, for example.

The fact that these numbers seem similar to those of other studies simply reflects that survey design problems affect the probability of accurate results, they don't absolutely guarantee the wrong ones. Even a stopped watch is right twice a day.

I didn't even mention margin of error, which is a statistical phenomenon unrelated to sample bias. In fact, for the universe of Rennlist users, the sample size is very solid.

devexpert

That makes sense, however, the numbers in this pool do represent the statistics for this forum group and this sample, whatever the group may be. The same is true I am sure for any other car forum group on the internet. Correct?

With that in mind then, if you compare the number of catastrophic engine failures in 996 to the other brands, like BMW, using forums, it seems to me that there are more failures here... And that comparison in my mind is a valid one.

I am looking into getting used 996 but this has put me on the fence. Now I know that I must get the CPO-ed one. The truth is, I frequent BMW and Audi (own both) message boards and have not seen this many engine catastrophic failures reported.

Ray S

Several people have provided numerous reasons all of which you have chosen to ignor.

Take a look at MrBonus's post (above your last) and you might start to form a idea about internet polls.

LVDell

I'll give you one. lack of validity.
I'll give you a second. lack of reliability.
I'll give you a third........

well, you get the point.

LVDell

You hit the nail right on the head!

DING DING DING....we have a winner.

The issue of validity is in YOUR mind and NOT based on sound science.

soldmystang

the fact that catastrophic engine failure exists should tell you something. i went thru this with a ford diesel 6.0 to some extent. i researched prior to purchase on forums such as this one and found the number of f'ed-up trucks to be very high given the overall number of posts about the 6.0 diesel.

i also stopped visiting those particular forums after trading my first 6.0 (mildly fubar-ed) after 7 months for another 6.0 that so far (80 K miles) has been solid and non-problematic.

forums attract certain kinds of postings, including those that make vehicles seem to be junk. are these polls representative of the overall population? i think not. are they a good indication that the problem is not a very isolated one? i would have to say yes.

i look at my ownership of a 6.0 ford as more luck and probability, rather than statistically speaking. knock on wood, it is still running fine.

it appears this particular post is reaching "dead horse" status more than anything else. the only reason it continues is because both sides feed the fire. doesn't change the fact that bad motors or whatever still exist. and as i am shopping i take this info seriously. albeit maybe, with a grain of salt given my ford experience.

Eharrison

You know what I hate? Trying to read this thread on a blackberry while standing in line at the airport. I appreciate the response. And have taken the comments in. I still feel that a poll at a convention would not be the same. The forum is not a forum of owners with engine failures. It would be similar in the fact that you ask a question at the convention with respect to what republican you support not what party. But it's my opinion and I'll leave it at that.

Shark

I don't have a NA car (Turbo), nor have I had a failure, I just voted YES because it seems like a more fun choice. I'm a very optimistic positive person, so I don't believe in the word NO

pl

this reminded me years ago, how we "elected" our president, and what happened in palm beach..

LVDell

pl......actually that "election" you refer to was both valid and reliable with statistical certainty. Was it valid? Yes. Votes that were accurately cast were counted. Was it Reliable? Yes. Those votes were counted more than once against different counters establishing within statistical limits that the voting results were repeated within statistical limits between counters.

Personally, I didn't care for EITHER candidate so this isn't me supporting one cadidate or another. Just me illustrating how incorrect your assumption is.

Time for this crap to head to OT. Leave it to a democrat to turn a poll about engine failures into rationale for a lost bid to the white house. .

JimB

It seems like somebody should write up a little article about the problems with the different 996s and have John "sticky" it for new or potential owners to read before they ask the same questions for the 500th time.

Let's face it. There is a good possibility that you will have an RMS issue at some point if you buy a 996. I have no idea if it's a 20% chance for a 80% chance but it may happen. You shouldn't buy the car if you don't have an extra $1000 laying around to fix it. There is a remote possiblity that you will blow an engine. This is especially true if you are buying used and don't know the PO. There are all kinds of ways to abuse these engines that the average Camary will never experience. If replacing an engine at some point would bankrupt your family then you shouldn't own this car. You will replace your rear tires every 10k miles or so and they are very expensive. If this doesn't fit your budget, don't buy this car. etc. etc.

My approach is to just ignore these threads but a summary would be a better approach. So Dell, why don't you whip that up. I'd be glad to review it.
Jim

LVDell

Funny one Jim! I for one, think the 996 is a fantastic step forward in reliability in the long line of cars PAG has put out. IIRC, there was an article in Total911 recently that talked about the reliability of the 996 engine as well in another issue talked about the RMS issue. Both articles were well researched as well as well written. I might have a scan of them that I could post up for good reading. Also, Excellence had an issue recently (a couple actually) that talked about buying tips for the 996 in the "market update" section.

LVDell

Here is a link to the reliability of 996 engine article:
http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=6470

As for the RMS article, if somebody would be able to host it and put a link to it I would be happy to email them the scanned article.

pl

for your read pleasure:

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=6470
The pdf version:
http://www.renntech.org/forums/index...e=post&id=3224

another one from total911:

http://www.autofarm.co.uk/new.php3/Total911_July06.pdf

devexpert

Yes, and I buy the car not sound science All I am saying is that I see more engine failures resulting in replacement reported here than on other car forums (www.bimmerfest.com and www.audiworld.com) and that as used car buyer does not inspire confidence.